Dr Edward: 0:25

Okay, welcome everyone to this full episode of the Pets. I'm super excited to have with us now in our teaser episode. I kind of messed up and said it was only 2019 that took a sharp turn from corporate world to go into dog training. It was actually 2009. So Brendan's been playing with dogs in this way and training dogs for a long time. He's got a lot of lived experience out there in the trenches, so to speak, with all kinds of dogs with all kinds of problems and helping them, making them changing their lives. He takes a really holistic, relationship-based approach to behaviour modification, and that's one of the things that I really love about how Brendan works is relationship positive reinforcement techniques. And, speaking of dogs, mitzi's come to help us out here. Hello, mitzi, he loves to get on the podcast and now I've got my Wifit one in to come up too, so it's going to be dog centra up here. We've got dogs everywhere.

Bryndon Golya: 1:35

Oh, I love Mitzi. Mitzi's food we're going to have-. No, mitzi's not happening.

Dr Edward: 1:41

You have to go over there mate, I've got my phone with the two dogs and the computer and cameras everywhere. So Mitzi's obviously got a little sore spot under his tummy where I picked him up. I'll have to check that out in a minute. Okay, this is Pets. This is what happens on this podcast. Is that we have-?

Bryndon Golya: 1:58

I got one here too.

Dr Edward: 1:59

Animals all over the place. So Mitzi's now been-. I just have to give him a pat because he's got-. I was supposed to be in the middle of things and now Pearl's taken the primary spot because she's 15 and a half. That's what happens. So the title of our podcast today is Strengthen your Relationship With your Pets Through Deeper Understanding. And, brendan, the three points we're going to go through are kindness as a training principle, using management and rewards, and offering choice versus demanding behavior from your dog. So let's dig into the first one Kindness is a training principle. How this inspires you.

Bryndon Golya: 2:38

You know this is not something I learned in a textbook. It wasn't something that was in a dog behavior course that I took. It's something that I've learned over, I guess more and more and more over a year of my life and seen how it affects my relationships, my own dog's relationships between other people. And it does fit in with the management rewards and offering choice as well, which the choice part of it is something I've probably put more attention to in the last three to five years, mostly in the last three, and so the kindness that is an aspect of that. It's not being so demanding and dominant the word, a big D word that we hear out there a lot between dogs and it's misused.

Bryndon Golya: 3:34

And there's a long history of training animals and people and trying to figure out a way to coerce them or get them to do something that is beneficial for us or to be a part of our lives, and traditionally, it seems, mostly we don't treat them as we would our children or other human beings that we would speak of, even though we regard them so highly and we say that they're like our children, yet when it comes down to it, we're pretty demanding when we want them to do something, and this is a species without dialogue between us. This is they're never, we're never. Well, ai might have something to say about that at some point, but right now we don't have any real way to communicate on the fly with them as we would like to. We can learn about that I mean, we can get better at it but it's not our natural communication.

Bryndon Golya: 4:36

And so it's a challenge and that's why there's difficulty between the humans and the dogs, and so we expect certain behaviors out of them or them to fit in certain ways, like I mentioned before, and I think realistically it's not reasonable for what we expect. But as far as how we interact with them, I've found and I know a lot of people have found that if we give them the benefit of the doubt again, use rewards Instead of punishers, maybe don't force them into positions which they don't like and consider hey listen, why are my dogs, why is this dog having a hard time, versus just being mean or grumpy or aggressive or anxious? And so when I reframe things a lot, I try to always say no, your dog is having a hard time. It's obvious. Regardless of what behavior is happening, he's having a hard time. How would you treat this if it was your three-year-old kid? And let me put it differently.

Bryndon Golya: 5:39

Let me say let's say you just got this dog and let's say that dog doesn't speak your language. Let's say you happen to take in a refugee from a different country, maybe Ukraine, who knows just as timely, and that child doesn't speak your language, has a different culture, has a different history, has some trauma, and I mean they're going to have some struggles fitting into your culture, your lifestyle, your routine, very much like a dog would. And most of the time they're having a hard time and they don't know how to tell you other than with their eyes, with their facial expression, with their body language, with their behavior, which may be aggravating or frustrating. But the reality is there's something to be figured out and the dog doesn't know how to convey that to you.

Bryndon Golya: 6:23

Most likely, and this is in a lot of the scenarios I work with, the dog doesn't know what else to do and the humans are out of ideas and we have to leap to conclusions and when we're out of ideas we kind of go with what we've been told or what we see on TV or Instagram and that is, make your dog do this, and it's not always the most fun thing for the dog. It doesn't even make sense half the time while we're asking our dog to lay down, or it's just silly sometimes. So I guess, when I to come back to it all, I want people to be more to me, more thoughtful, and kind of take a pause, take a breath and say all right, I don't really know why my dog is acting this way, but it's probably not because he's dominant, mean alpha possessive, push, I mean he's. There's so many other things. That probably is.

Dr Edward: 7:14

Let's talk a little bit about that, because you know, if you've ever worked another thing that I've been said to people if you ever worked for a boss who is dominating and micro managing- I have.

Bryndon Golya: 7:26

Yeah, I left that job and I've been here with Doc Schreiner.

Dr Edward: 7:29

Did you enjoy it and how did it feel to have someone kind of bullying you all the time? Oh, I mean.

Bryndon Golya: 7:38

I, I've never liked that I, I I've always been a of the type that just doesn't, you know, like being told what to do and likes freedom and likes to be expressive, you know, might be more artistic and creative and needs space and is hard to hard to fit into a rigid, you know, format. And I think that's a lot of dogs, you know, even if it's just half I think that's enough.

Bryndon Golya: 8:00

It's. You know it's. There's plenty of dogs that can fit into a lot of ease, a lot of lifestyles, and you know we, we expect every dog to do that. But reality is there's just, we're just, it's just too demanding and we expect too much of our dogs. Like I was mentioning before, we put our dogs in positions of deprivation most of the day and night, either in a crate kennel or without anybody.

Bryndon Golya: 8:22

We feed them out of a bowl, like we do for some reason, and it may sit there all day. It may be gone in three minutes, and then what? And then we might take them out once a day If you're lucky. You know some people get out two or three times, but you know it's probably once or twice and it's probably less than 30 minutes and in the event that it's not, it's probably walking to a destination that you want to go to. That doesn't enrich their lives and it's at a pace that's ideal for the human and they miss a lot along the way. So there's a lot of stuff that we just expect out of our dogs which comes back into, you know, offering choice and so forth and more rewards, and there's some basic, really easy rewards you can add to our dogs lives that I think are simple enough. And I know they're simple because people have done them, taken my advice and and their dog's behaviors change relatively quickly and it's not drastic, it's not hard, it's not technical Simple things to make big differences.

Dr Edward: 9:16

Okay. So when we're talking about simple things that make big differences, what kinds of rewards? You know? Positive reinforcement. Well, let's, before we go into that we're going to go into more practicalities in the second half of this interview but maybe explain to us a bit about what positive reinforcement is and why it's a beautiful, kind way to inspire your dogs to want to work with you and do the desired things.

Bryndon Golya: 9:44

Well, I'd say overall, it's probably the preferred choice of interaction between everybody here. Watching this, every organism seems to be like to be rewarded versus punished. It's just, it's a motivation, like punishment is, but it seems to not have the side effects or issues of punishment per se. There are other side effects of too much rewards, too often and so forth. But realistically like, if you want to motivate your dog, your husband, your wife, any friend of yours, it's advised to probably tell them how much you like them, show that to them when they're doing something that you like and likely they're going to remember that and want to do that for you again because it was so rewarding for them. If you do that more than you do, correct them and tell them what's wrong or add pressure, their emotions are generally better around you and they're going to want to compliment you or be a part of your life more. So. That relationship is there when you start to think about positive.

Bryndon Golya: 10:43

What can I add good to the situation? When can I add it? Where do I add it? How frequently do I add it, you know, and so forth, and that's as technical as it really has to get to some degree. You just need to do more of it, be consistent enough, because most people are not, and, with that, use management which we talked about to prevent unwanted behavior. If we can really lay on the management, and I mean like really early on, so we don't develop problems and misunderstandings and boundary issues, then what you'd like, if you do it well, is just reward, reward, reward for the most part, okay.

Dr Edward: 11:21

So so rewards are something that is enjoyable or pleasurable, something that is desired yeah, if we want to get really kind of high level matter about it and it's something. What does a positive reward do in terms of the physiology and the mental, emotional state of being of dogs? Do you think?

Bryndon Golya: 11:48

Well, it does increase focus. Dopamine is part of that. Engagement increases engagement drive and so forth. So if you're looking to get your dog more motivated and more focused on something, then I think using that will be the best method. Contrarily, if you use punishment, it does the exact opposite. Dogs don't offer behavior. As much Stress, hormones, cortisol, adrenaline rise. They don't come back down for some time. You know it's not ideal, and then dogs don't learn well when they're stressed period. None of us do when we're stressed or fearful or concerned. We just don't retain knowledge very well at all and so I don't recommend that. But yeah, it does. It builds a relationship and a feeling and a memory and that is the best. I think that's exactly what I want for everybody is a feeling of what training is like, because you can't train just the behavior. You're always training a behavior and training how to feel.

Dr Edward: 12:51

I suppose too, you could reframe training to become relationship building and communication and in a relationship each wants to please the other right and you want to work together and you want to have a bond and inspiration and connection.

Bryndon Golya: 13:11

I think that's true.

Bryndon Golya: 13:12

I think the label training is something we might want to reconsider because it does evoke a certain context of what that looks like in our head, Maybe even past experiences, training, having a challenge and trying to overcome a challenge.

Bryndon Golya: 13:29

But yeah, if you're thinking about relationship building as a method for interest and follow through and presence, I think that's a good way to look at it. I mean, I often have the same conversation with my clients and use their relationship as an analogy to their dogs and use mine, because I mean, the long-term relationship have been in the few and that's kind of my thing, and they wouldn't be long-term or this wouldn't be long-term if I didn't put a lot of work into it. And I've learned that it's a lot of being present, being consistent, adding value, Um, turning towards them and conf and finding a way to solve problems together. And if I don't put the time in with my relationship, I'm going to have a struggle of conflict and we're going to kind of probably divulge into being mean or you know and not and not use the, the, you know the tools we have. So I think it's this it's that's really helped me with my dogs and back and forth.

Bryndon Golya: 14:30

I've learned that they're very, very similar yeah.

Dr Edward: 14:33

Well, certainly you know my, my experience with animals and and I I grew up on a on a cattle property. I ranch here in Australia where animals were not treated kindly. You know there was a lot of very forceful, painful, um aversive, flat out, brutal and horrible things Um that I learned how to do and I've had to unlearn a lot of that. So I think one of the things in there there is a stack of evidence for this is that anytime you start using negative reinforcement, aversives, painful, fearful stimuli to to make an animal do something yeah, you know I I believe two things happen. One is that you damage the relationship and bond with your animal. And number two is you cause trauma which sets the nervous system gets sensitized into sympathetic, dominant, adrenalized, and and then your animals can't learn and and they, their behavior tends to, to, to, to deteriorate and be less desirable for us humans, right?

Bryndon Golya: 15:31

It does, yeah, and I and I and I'm no, uh, I mean I'm. I've had my own experience using aversive methods and you know I didn't start out knowing everything I do today and I probably started out what you call a balanced trainer, really loving the idea of positive reinforcement, really delving into it but at the same time, seeing how punishment works and, unfortunately, being good at it. I am a really fast reactive person. I have the skill set to be a great punishment trainer. I just learned over time and a lot of dogs who told me that this is not working and then, once I learned that they're how they're communicating, I could see what they're trying to tell me and like, this is not what I want to go home with. Yeah, and I don't want. I don't want that, that feeling myself, um and and and. To be fair, I don't want to say that all punishment or negative reinforcement, from my perspective, is purely bad and it's and it's ineffective. It is very effective, but it's it's. I want to teach people how to be mean to their dogs.

Dr Edward: 16:33

No, well, there's. There's the essence of it is right, it's more I want to teach people how to be mean to their dog, which is what aversives really is at the core. Now, a dog might find you setting setting a boundary somewhat aversive, but that's healthy for the whole relationship overall and that that's a different thing too, right.

Bryndon Golya: 16:53

Your dog is going to pull on leash and you're going to hold on to the leash and when they're done pulling, you're probably going to walk them. It's negative reinforcement, yeah, but what else are you going to do? Let your dog run down the street after the squirrel. So I mean, yeah, it's part of life.

Bryndon Golya: 17:06

Uh, waiting in traffic waiting, waiting in traffic every day here in California is very, very aversive and in the feeling of getting out of it's amazing. So there's something to be said for the. You know the the negative reinforcement if it's used correctly. But it should not be your primary method and you really need to Use it in a limited fashion, as because it does involve positive punishment first, which most people don't use Absolutely.

Dr Edward: 17:30

And you know, if you have that principle of kindness that is going to inform any kind of occasional, necessary negative reinforcement, then how are you going to do that? It's going to be totally different anyway. Um so management how do you define management, and and limiting and what's limiting?

Bryndon Golya: 17:49

usually limiting access is the first way I would look at it. Um to anything so far away. You know your home is management. You bring your puppy from the outside in.

Bryndon Golya: 17:58

You've got walls, you've got doors, you've got everything that we have, that you know, stairs, et cetera. And so to avoid problem behavior, we can predict dogs do certain things Dogs like food, dogs like people, dogs liked play. Um, dogs like to see things, like to be stimulated. So a lot of this might be, let's say, looking out of a window uh, dogs barking out of a window all day long when you're gone, practicing barking and practicing driving people away, only to feel successful.

Dr Edward: 18:29

Yeah, and getting the inevitable success that every time they bug, at the moment he goes away. The ultimate reinforcer.

Bryndon Golya: 18:34

Yeah, ultimate reinforcer Um and and so and that's negative reinforcement technically but uh, it does increase behavior, the barking rapidly in some cases. So you know, that's one of those where, like, you need to either cover your blinds, you need to tint the windows or you need to remove the couch from behind the window and that is technically the antecedent of the behavior. The driver is access. And that's actually the one of the first things I look to before I do any training is what can I limit to minimize the expression of this behavior?

Dr Edward: 19:07

Um, okay, that's a. That's an interesting principle. What can I limit to reduce the expression of undesirable behaviors in in the dog's life, that's?

Bryndon Golya: 19:17

that's not going to compromise, of course, their wellbeing, but this is right, it's a harder time adjusting and you have to make those adjustments based on the dog and your understanding and and what you can come up with creatively. But I have three dogs right now. Um, they're all small dogs. They're you know, they're easy to manage. But I have one who's my oldest and she has a resource guarding history Nothing that's ever caused damage, but it's not fair to my other ones who are smaller or more vulnerable. So, very simply, I could create her. I create her it when she eats. The other ones are free at different areas. They're not near each other either, but I trained her to tolerate a crate. She likes the crate, she has a great time in there and because she's in there, we're all safe. Everybody have no worries whatsoever. Otherwise, 90, 95% of the time we're fine also, but 5% of the time there's a screaming match and somebody's vulnerable and takes, taken advantage of, and that's just not okay.

Dr Edward: 20:10

So, yeah, yeah, so you, you're managing, that's management, that's management. Through managing the environment and other stimuli. Okay, so we've got through kind of the first phase of this podcast, which is ideas, talking about ideas and philosophies and things like that. We're going to take a little five minute interlude here that every time we do one of these episodes we ask our guests what's your? Something that you do in your life for self care that you can share with us in five minutes, the most effective thing that helps you be happier and healthier.

Bryndon Golya: 20:47

I'll share two things because they're not interchangeable. I'll go with a little bit of history For quick. I have Tourette syndrome. I have a little anxiety once in a while, I get highly aroused and very easy to arouse, and so I need to settle down. Sometimes I also talk a lot, which you can tell, and I don't get enough oxygen, probably because of that, and so I need to notice and notice when my I'm feeling a certain way inside a certain tension, heart rate, breath rate. There's just something I've noticed in my body that says you know what, if you do this too long, you might hit your threshold and then you might react in a certain way, just like your dog, and you might not mean it, but those triggers, as minor as they are, even good ones. Public speaking for two hours, I loved it, but I, you know I didn't address my ticks, my Tourettes, and I'm you know. So I need to settle down and reevaluate myself, and so with that I have breathing techniques that I love to share.

Bryndon Golya: 21:45

Right, I practice daily, I don't know how many times a day, but it's whenever I need it, and those are typically two kinds. One is called box breathing, so I'll demonstrate real quick. Usually it's starting with an exhale to get all the air out and then a probably a five to seven second inhale, ideally through the nose, if you don't have clogged nose, and then hold five to seven seconds, slowly, exhale five to seven seconds. Basically it's five to seven, five to seven, five to seven and then, once you're out of breath, about three to five maybe seconds of no breath whatsoever and then it starts a progression again. The other breathing technique that I use and I'll do that for five to 10 minutes, I'll go from completely stressed out.

Dr Edward: 22:30

I'm just doing it right now and I can feel a settling and my nervous system oh, that's kind of nice.

Bryndon Golya: 22:36

And you can increase the length of time gradually. You don't have to start out. If you're stressed at five to seven seconds, you could go inhale five seconds, hold three seconds, exhale, you know, five seconds, maybe one or two seconds at the bottom, and then build up once you're kind of stable to five to seven, maybe 10 seconds and just go with what you're comfortable with.

Dr Edward: 22:58

That's the point and you know, all the while you're listening, play around with this. Start maybe three seconds in pause, three seconds out three seconds. Yeah, pause, three seconds in three seconds, just to get a feel of it in your body while you're listening. Because it's I want people. One of the things about this podcast is I don't want you just to listen to it and do nothing. I want you to learn something and take something into your life. And this breathing technique well, if you do it regularly during the day, it'll reset your nervous system in a really profound way.

Bryndon Golya: 23:28

Two more suggestions. One, do this, laying down, if you can, so your body's taken out of it, you're not trying to balance and use your musculature. Take the senses out If you can go into a darker room or just put something over your eyes. A lot of times our eyes keep us in a certain state, from what I can tell, and if I close my eyes I am much faster, I lose track of what I'm thinking about and I can finally focus on myself without all the extra stimulation. That seems to be more helpful.

Bryndon Golya: 23:56

And then the last breathing technique that I use I've learned recently. I guess it's called a physiological sigh, and we all do this without even knowing it. We do it when we're asleep, we do it throughout the day, our animals do it, you can watch them and when we're tired or low on oxygen we will inhale again just through the nose, slow at the end and then deep again, five to seven seconds, but it's two inhales. It's then the exhale or through the nose, whatever is easiest for you. Supposedly that helps us rid our bodies of CO2 much faster and get more oxygen to our bodies.

Dr Edward: 24:39

And you know you're either listening to us you probably hear a little change in the tone of our voice because we've been doing this practice in the middle of this episode that we're recording now, and you know my invitation for you is what we're gonna do next in this podcast episode is we're gonna dig into some practical expression of things you can do with your animals in terms of expressing kindness, offering choice first, demanding behavior, which, and management and rewards. But while you're listening, just maybe play around with doing that box, breathing while you're listening, and notice the changes in your body, because one thing that I've noticed with my work with animals is the more that I care for myself and the better I get into a grounded, relaxed state, the better my dogs behave, invariably.

Bryndon Golya: 25:30

That's my secret too. That's why I've learned this. It's up to me to set an example of the what energy, what behavior, what I'm saying. I tend to swear or cuss or be more erratic when I'm in that state, and my dogs also pick up on those cues. Not that I have it in mind and not that I'm angry at my dogs. It could be the internet, it could be anything, it could be a 25 robot, text calls or whatever, but it's just. You know when you need to take care of yourself, like you said at first. So I put a lot of these practices in place, basically so I can be better for others, including my dogs.

Dr Edward: 26:07

Awesome. So let's dig into some hands-on applications of what we're talking about today, which is strengthening your relationship with your pets through deeper understanding. So how do you express kindness in what we're calling it training, but it's really relationship building and learning together how to live together and modify our behavior so that we can be a pack, you know, with animals.

Bryndon Golya: 26:33

Yeah, I mean kindness is a practice that is all day, you know it starts with. I mean every interaction with our pet has an opportunity for some kind of kindness. It's how we pick them up, you know. I mean that we say, hey, listen, I know you have some sensitive inner castles in your ribs. Maybe I should be careful, or I know you.

Dr Edward: 26:52

I wasn't quite aware that he was quite so sensitive.

Bryndon Golya: 26:55

I wasn't judging you either, I was just talking to my head, because it happens to my dogs too.

Dr Edward: 27:00

I feel a little odd about that actually. Then I picked him up and he's like oh, that's really so good. I'm so sorry.

Bryndon Golya: 27:08

Yeah, I have old pets and I have to be careful of how they're feeling. They feel different from day to day, and so I try to feel them out and see what's best for them. One likes to be held close so she's secure. One likes to have her bottom held a certain way. One likes to perch. They might have. They have spinal differences, and so I'm just trying to kind of identify what's the best way to interact with them when they like to be pet. Where they don't like to be pet, why am I petting them? Am I bugging my pets? Am I doing it selfishly, for my own needs?

Dr Edward: 27:35

That happens a lot with me.

Bryndon Golya: 27:37

That happens often. I'm very wanted to be in my pets, in their face, and when they're sleeping they're the cutest. But, man, can you imagine being woken up every four minutes because you want them to?

Dr Edward: 27:47

have any love on your face.

Bryndon Golya: 27:49

It's something I think about. So that's one of the ways I express kindness. I let them sleep. When I see them doing the right thing, I walk up and I offer them a treat. I have stations where I keep food around. I'll just grab it and drop it off where I like them doing the right behavior. I don't make them, I don't force them into situations I can see they're not into. I mean, I like them to sit and look at me for things, but if they object once in a while, I say okay, why are you not doing this? Sometimes? Is there a really valid reason why I'm doing this or is it my routine?

Bryndon Golya: 28:20

Yeah, I see this a lot actually with this is one that's kind of a pee. But I see with a lot of owners and I see it on busy curbsides, at street corners, where it's terrifying, and they're forcing their dog into a sit and, like man, that dog is scared shitless, excuse me and it doesn't want to for a very good reason.

Dr Edward: 28:41

Yeah, because he's aroused, he's in a really sympathetic, dominant state of being and his brain is turned off and he needs to be up on his feet because he feels like he's got to run away, because he's scary things. And then you've got this big hand coming.

Bryndon Golya: 28:55

Sit down. I've seen it in my own dog because there is a dog behind her giving her a very nasty look and I had asked her. I was actually photographing a group of dogs and people and my dog was in there and I said down, and she wouldn't. I was like she was telling me no, straight up, I'm not doing that. And there was a German shepherd behind her giving her nasty look that I didn't see because of behind a person and come to find out. That's why she was like I don't want to be vulnerable. This dog was too close to me. I went a way out in case, and so there's a lot of reasons. I found that my dogs are right a lot of the time.

Dr Edward: 29:29

Oh look, and you know, sometimes with Mitzi it's just like dude, I don't want to do that, so I'm not gonna. And I really like dogs that occasionally. Just I asked him to do something. It's like I want to see you.

Bryndon Golya: 29:43

Why would they have to have a? Why do they have to be robots? You know what is that? I mean? Why everybody has to object to you once in a while, otherwise it's it's not real life. So you should look out for that in your pet and say, hey, look, they don't want to. Why, what does it matter? What do they can't? They just stand there and look at you, you know, and is that not okay to receive love and affection? Or do they have to be to sit? And that sit might be in a hard or a slippery surface, like a lot of the houses out here, where the legs play out and it causes stress on the body and I don't want a dog to sit like that.

Bryndon Golya: 30:18

I don't want to force a greyhound with a long spine to sit.

Dr Edward: 30:21

I had a staffy once who, in winter we had cement tile floors and the only place you would sit was on your foot because you didn't like putting a backside on the cold floor one little bit.

Bryndon Golya: 30:31

Right.

Dr Edward: 30:32

So let's move into offering choice versus demanding behavior, because we're kind of starting to edge into talking about that anyway, aren't we?

Bryndon Golya: 30:40

We are, and that's it's a perfect fit for where I'm going, because that is also that choice, and today I experienced that a little bit. I was walking my dogs and so the sun's coming in my eyes over here as the sun changes. But I was walking my dogs today and you know I really had a lot to do. I had a lot going on today, but I was like you know what you guys need to go out together and you know if you don't, we're probably not going to get it done later or be to rush. I took them out and I'm watching my dogs and, to be fair, this is pretty common, for I don't take my dogs to anywhere. It's not I'm not going to walk them Like to a place, or it's not for certain amount of time or it's not for exercise, it's just to get some enrichment. They want to run, they want to do, can do that. So most of the time I'm letting them lead. I mean, I'm letting them decide where they want to go, as long as it's not gonna end up being a problem Whether it's not something wrong with that area or that's not incompatible with yet yeah, their comfort level is, and so you know I I wanted to go back home and they're like you know what? I want to go smell this way, like I have no idea what's that way. It's something amazing. There was that they grabbed a spot for the next five minutes and they're loving it.

Bryndon Golya: 31:45

But you know, I could have said no, we're going this way because I want to go home. I'm like a lot of people might have. I'm like, instead, I said you know you can smell out here longer, go when you want. I don't know what you're smelling like. Yeah, I can't tell you what's good or what's not. I can just say, you know, if you're enjoying it, the worst thing that happens. I just sit out here and wait for you for a little bit longer. But I know when you go home you might be a little bit happier. You know you might be sleeping like they are right now, because they have their needs met to some extent, more than I Would have if I decided what was best for them. You know I need to walk you Another half a mile, or I, you know whatever. Maybe. Yeah, pass all this.

Dr Edward: 32:19

Yeah, and I suppose to you know. I think you can bring it back to yourself. You know, though, those of you who are listening, how much do you like to have choice and agency in your life, and how much do you like to be really controlled and made to do Things that you don't want to do? You know, because your dogs have feelings just like you, and the more you realize that, the more you're gonna start to change how you interact with them. In little ways, I think it is my primary reinforcer.

Bryndon Golya: 32:47

Let's put it that way choice is absolutely my. What drives me the most when I feel like I'm limited, I have anxiety and I don't like that feeling. So I can only imagine how it feels for others who can't communicate. They're there, I guess, the position they're in, and not being able to find another avenue to fulfill themselves. So, yeah, I think choice is absolutely crucial. Is probably, should you know, be then be one of the top things we consider. Not that we can afford that all the time, but we don't do that for anybody all the time.

Dr Edward: 33:18

When it comes now, we do need to demand some behaviors from our dogs for safety, for you know, cleanliness and not messing in the house and stuff like that. So how do you go about approaching Necessary, demanding a behavior when, when you with your dogs and when you're working with clients dogs?

Bryndon Golya: 33:40

There's this. This is where there's a little bit of a gray area. How much can you tolerate, how much can you ignore? I mean, I'd say it's a practice behavior, it's a learned behavior. Most people aren't very good at ignoring their pets there.

Bryndon Golya: 33:53

They respond to them Just like they would people, and it seems to contribute to problems because it's attention and reinforcement, and so I think you know there's a there's a line where it's like you know there's. They may demand and want things, and that's probably just something I need to fix later Change my scheduling for the day, feed different times, use more enrichment, walk more. It's usually a symptom of something I haven't done already. But, either way, what I you can, I guess, when it comes down to certain things, you don't have to respond to everything you can let. If you and if you train properly, let's put this way if you use positive reinforcement primarily, and not punishment, your dogs tend to offer options to you. They'll show you something else they're they're interested in. They won't just sit there. So they may say, alright, if I can't have this, maybe I'll do this for this. I've already trained you how to do these things. They're like well, you know, you train me how to go to a mat. Alright, well, if I, instead of barking here and jumping on you, I noticed that mats over there. Still, if you ignore me long enough, I might try something else that you taught me and and that's that's still choice.

Bryndon Golya: 35:01

I'm just not responding to the first thing I'm get. I've given you choice already and now you've walked over to the carpet laid down. Oh, good decision, nice, I like that. You changed your mind. I'm now want to meet you here. So there's, that's a little bit of choice. And I guess I should say but I mean with food, if, if you know that pets don't want, or my dogs don't want to eat a certain way, I'll give it to them a different way If they don't like him. You know something else I'm doing. I'll say I, we're not doing that, we're not gonna play that game today, but it doesn't, yeah, but when they. But there's a, there's a point where I won't. I know that. There's a point where I, if I, if I respond too much To demand behavior, that I'm part of the problem as well. I have to find other solutions so that they don't feel it need to.

Dr Edward: 35:44

So well, I suppose there's two kinds of ways we can look at demanding behavior to we can. We can demand that dogs behave in certain ways in Certain contexts for a range of reasons, but dogs are extraordinarily demanding in what they ask of humans and they're extraordinarily determined and they're Incredibly good at reading human body language. So if if you don't mean it in your body, they're just gonna ignore you no matter what you say.

Bryndon Golya: 36:10

That is true. Yeah, a body language is something people aren't very keen on, it seems like, but they're using it all the time. So, yeah, yeah it's, it's all over your face, it's in your posture, it's in your breathing, really in your breathing. People hold their breath when they're nervous, when they're scared, when they're tense. Dogs feel that they hear that your behavior translates Just down, like from your mind. So people use. It's one of those things. People. People use word energy a lot and I like the, the word itself, but it's misleading, is, it's a kind of ethereal Energy is definitely real, but it's and I'm sure animals can. We can all sense that, but there's an obvious amount of behavior that happens Morbidly with this energy. You know tightening, tensing posture. You know facial expressions yeah, tightening of mouth, big eyes blinking pupil dilation and heart rate.

Bryndon Golya: 37:06

Heart rate is a big one for animal.

Dr Edward: 37:07

Your smell changes. When you smell changes, yeah, we can't we can't change that.

Bryndon Golya: 37:12

But you know, there there's a lot of stuff going on that we're we're not really aware of as far as what our animals are reading and responding to.

Dr Edward: 37:19

So Okay, so let's just touch on On management again. Yeah sure, before we go to that, you know, I actually think it's it's fine not to give dogs what they want. I think it builds resilience and if you let them work through frustration and don't over soothe and Panda to them too much, I think that can actually be really good for emotional, mental resilience over time. I agree.

Bryndon Golya: 37:48

I totally I agree with that and I think it's hard to do, which I think it's a great skill to acquire. The ability is to know you're not hurting your dog and they're not screaming in pain. They're just, you know, acting like a child and you've given them a certain set of skills and a certain amount of limitations to communicate, and that's what we have, and so sometimes you let it go and they just Get through it.

Dr Edward: 38:14

Yeah, they work their way through it and that that's kind of important too. But management do you have anything else practical you can talk about with management before we wrap this up?

Bryndon Golya: 38:24

Think about all the all the way was using manager. I'll say this Because there's a lot of options that go down, but something that's overlooked a lot that is, and something that's looked at down upon quite a bit, are mussels, and I would say this I am a big proponent of mussels that are conditioned properly. They're a great skill to have before you need it. So I like the idea of mussel training or feeding out of mussels for pets who don't need it at an early age, even in puppyhood.

Dr Edward: 38:58

Yep, and I think what you're saying here is that you want to make it. So the dog thinks oh, here's a mussel, that's cool, put that thing on this is awesome Right.

Bryndon Golya: 39:08

Totally. That's exactly my point. So I think, getting ahead of that, making it a positive, making a positive association with it, having a good emotion contextual to the device so that it's not a stressor. That way in the future, if you need it for any reason, you could be traveling. There could be a natural disaster. Your pet isn't safe out and about, maybe you couldn't kennel him, maybe your dog does develop aggression for some reason. It could be from pain, it could be from anxiety, it could be from any number of reasons and the easiest way to prevent that is a mussel in a lot of cases, without having to go deep into training and behavior work and anesthetian arrangement and so forth and environmental management. The easiest thing to manage usually is the mouth, but it's very challenging and stressful and can add to the aggression or frustration if we don't do it ahead of time.

Bryndon Golya: 40:00

So don't look at dogs with mussels as dangerous. Look at them as the safest dogs around you, probably.

Dr Edward: 40:07

Yeah, and this is a kind of proactive and long-term kindness in a way, even though it takes work and time and effort to inspire a dog to want to wear a mussel, because it's had so much positive reinforcement around it and you've taken time and care and kindness to teach them, and I agree with that. And if you've got any dog that's had any tendency when they're put under stress to go to their teeth to express that stress and fear, then a mussel. From the perspective of the veterinarian who's got to look at your dog, I've got to tell you.

Bryndon Golya: 40:39

Your vet will thank you, that's true.

Dr Edward: 40:42

Well, you'd be surprised how many people the dog tries to bite me and then they say, oh, I just tried to bite three other vets.

Bryndon Golya: 40:49

It's not hilarious, it's unreal.

Dr Edward: 40:50

I don't tell you. It's really weird Human behavior.

Bryndon Golya: 40:55

People really want to show me the aggression when I come over to their house too, like when I walk in. They're like don't you want to see it? I'm like, no, no, why would I want your dog to get better at this?

Dr Edward: 41:05

I don't want to be part of it Awesome.

Dr Edward: 41:09

So it's been a really interesting, broad-ranging conversation and all of you who are listening I'm sure you've learned a whole lot of good things. I hope you've been doing your box breathing a little bit while we're going through the second half of this. I know that I was when I was listening to Brendan and we're going to wrap this up, but I just want to let you know that with the Pets, people and Harmony podcast, we have an intensive workshop series that comes off the back of not every episode, but most episodes. Most of our speakers have so much more really practical, actionable information and skills and wisdom to share. Then we can fit into the 45 odd minutes of the podcast.

Dr Edward: 41:48

So we're going to we'll be doing this live with Brendan a couple of weeks after this main episode drops and then it'll be available as a recording thereafter as well so that you can drop in. But we're going to spend a whole two hours together where we're going to go right into the practicalities and you're going to learn games and skills and training methods and all sorts of things to strengthen your relationship with your pets through a deeper understanding, with kindness, using management, using positive rewards and offering choice versus demanding behavior All of these things. So, brendan, thank you so much. It's been an absolute privilege to have you on sharing your wisdom on the show and we look forward to having a really amazing intensive workshop with you as well.

Bryndon Golya: 42:42

Sounds good, my pleasure. Thank you for having me.

Dr Edward: 42:44

You're welcome and Pearl, who's asleep here, says goodbye to everyone too. I saw your dog was just up there a minute ago. Thank you so much for being part of the podcast. If you enjoy the podcast, please do leave us a review and tell your friends about it, where this podcast is really designed to bring information and skills and learnings that are going to transform the lives of pets and people for the better in every way that we can. So thank you very much and goodbye for now. We'll see you in the next episode. Thank you.