Dr Edward: 0:01

Hello and welcome to the Whole Energy Body Balance podcast, where we explore all kinds of possibilities and practices that bring greater healing, connection and harmony to pets, people and horses, and hopefully to the world too, and we aim to inspire you, to challenge you and to, hopefully, you know, help give you something that you can act on to create positive change and healing in your life and in the lives of the beings you care for. I'm your host, dr Edward, the healing vet, and I help deeply caring people, pets and horses unfold profound healing and healthy relationships with somatic awareness, loving, therapeutic touch, intuitive perception, kind training and energy work, and I also practice as an intuitive integrative veterinarian, helping people all over the world. Now I would love to introduce Ness Jones, who is our guest expert today. Ness Jones is separation anxiety in dogs behavior consultant and specialist, and she takes a holistic approach in helping dogs to become confident and feel safe with home alone time every time you walk out the door, so welcome.

Ness Jones: 1:12

Thank you. Thank you, dr Edward, pleasure to be here. Thank you for joining us.

Dr Edward: 1:17

Yeah, so we're going to have fun today. Who knows where our conversation will end up and, you know, always happy to take the road. Less travelled path, less travelled. As we're having a conversation, I think it's really good to explore, and exploring is the theme of this whole series of podcasts exploring life, exploring ways to make a difference for our animals.

Ness Jones: 1:40

Yeah, that's lovely.

Dr Edward: 1:42

So we start off with a big question, because big questions are good. Big questions help stimulate interesting conversations. So, ness, who are you? Why do you do what you do and how did you get to where you are in your life?

Ness Jones: 1:57

Oh, how did I get here? That is a big question. It's a bit of a long-winded one so I'll try to keep it short. But years ago, my first dog as as an adult so I wasn't a dog trainer, didn't know anything about dogs um, he was a backyard bred dog. We bought him from a pet shop. He was not, and we thought we were doing all the right things by feeding horrible, this really really bad kibble, which we thought was really expensive kibble, but it was really bad. I won't mention the name and he had lots and lots of health issues and he was kind of the catalyst I think. You know, having a Rottweiler, you know you've got to train them and make sure that they're healthy.

Ness Jones: 2:42

So I took him to the doggy you know local doggy puppy school and all those sort of things. But he did end up having some serious health issues because of his breeding and he ended up with MMM, which is muscular myotosis mastitis.

Dr Edward: 3:01

I forget the actual Muscular, muscle myositis. I think yes, yes, yes, something like that. Mmm, what are you talking about?

Ness Jones: 3:04

I forget the actual name Macular capillary muscle myositis I think yes, yes, yes, something like that.

Dr Edward: 3:06

Is that what you were talking about?

Ness Jones: 3:07

And I went to a normal vet and they were like, oh well, you know, basically you could see the skull coming through, you know like it was that bad. And they said, if you don't do something about this he's not going to be able to. He could get to the point where he can't eat, can't open his mouth, et cetera, et cetera. And so, yeah, it was pretty bad. And that vet said, well, put him on cortisone. And I was not that happy about that outcome because I knew that could cause other health issues long term.

Ness Jones: 3:38

I ended up going to a holistic vet and they said, no, no, we're going to do, we'll give them some natural anti-inflammatories, vitamin c changes, diet to raw feeding, all those sort of things. That set me on the path of kind of looking into the natural therapy. So that was because I am a um, a qualified um, small animal naturopath as well. So that point, yeah, um. So I like to take a holistic approach with my clients. Then we got a, a roddy bitch, as a companion to him and she, when she was about seven months old. I was working in an office at this time.

Dr Edward: 4:17

She would put holes in the walls, so she um so this is your first meeting with a dog with high levels of separation, anxiety, outpicturing in destructive behaviour.

Ness Jones: 4:29

Yeah, yeah, but I'd never heard of separation anxiety. I mean, I wasn't a dog trainer, I don't even know if it was a common phrase back then in those days. I mean, it is a while ago and we literally knew it was her because when we came, came home, there'd be powder all over her snout and her legs and paws and stuff. So she was definitely the culprit and there was literally great big holes in the plasterboard. You can imagine my husband wasn't very happy no so had to get on top of that.

Ness Jones: 5:01

And then, um, we got that rock. The first roddy died, um passed away and then we got that roddy behind me and he's he's a working line, proper breeding etc, etc, and had to get into some sort of dog training, like serious dog training, with them. So I started doing igp, which is used to be called chutz and it's called, and it was ipo, now it's called IGP, but it's dog sports or so tracking and obedience and a bit of bite work as well. Anyway, that kind of set me on the path of wow, this is amazing, this is a whole new world to me in terms of dogs and training and what they can do. So I started educating myself in dog training and got some qualifications in that regard.

Ness Jones: 5:47

And then COVID hit of course this is many years later and I upskilled into learning more about separation-related behaviours, because I had a client at one stage and didn't really feel like I was meeting their needs, because now the things I would tell you if you have a dog with separation-related behaviours, the things I would tell you now are completely different to the things I would have told you before I upskilled, pre-covid sort of things. So that's kind of the. In a nutshell, I start, you know. So I kind of the first couple of dogs led me into dog training and then that led me into separation-related behaviours. Yeah.

Dr Edward: 6:30

Cool, yeah, it's opened the way isn't it that the challenges we have either in our own health and wellbeing or with our animals are what lead us to learn new things that work, hopefully.

Ness Jones: 6:44

Yeah, totally yeah, so yeah. So I do help clients all around the world. So yeah, and I think you said why do I do it? I know what people with dogs with separation anxiety or separation-related behaviours I know what they're going through. I know the stress it causes them. I know many of them feel like they're prisoners in their own homes.

Dr Edward: 7:07

Well, they are, yeah, they are. It's not feeling like prisoners in their own home, they are prisoners in their own home.

Ness Jones: 7:16

Totally. And one lady in my Facebook group. She called her dog a fairy jailer and I thought, yeah, that's really appropriate actually. And somebody else called their dog a fairy jailer and I thought, yeah, that's really appropriate actually. And somebody else called their dog an anchor, a fairy anchor, and I thought, yeah, I get that, I get that, so yeah, so what I do is me help people. I guess, yeah.

Dr Edward: 7:35

Yeah. So just to step back when you first started doing training with dogs, and I'd be interested to kind of learn a little bit about your philosophy of training, and has that changed over the years too? How you interact with dogs, how you teach dogs, how you build relationship with dogs.

Ness Jones: 7:53

Oh, yes, yes, when I found this school here in my area initially with the first Rottweiler, yes, it was very different. Training, thank goodness, is evolving all the time. But back then, like, I was told that I must force my dog, my Rottweiler, to stare at me, to look me in the eyes, and if they didn't want to do it, I had to force them. So basically, I was taking him off into a room and holding him and making him look into my eyes, like, like come here.

Dr Edward: 8:25

Dog, look at me.

Ness Jones: 8:27

Look at me and of course that's really bad doggy communication. I had no idea he was trying to go. Oh, I don't want to do that because you know it's confrontational. I mean really with a different dog. If somebody or a stranger had done that, they could have potentially been bitten. You know you're trying, trying to. It could be construed by the dog as a sign of aggression. So, um well, absolutely.

Dr Edward: 8:52

And you know, if a human comes up to you and stares you right in the eye like that, it's kind of not very good human communication either but luckily now my dogs all look me in the eyes and it's more of a you know that dopamine hit.

Ness Jones: 9:06

It's a hey, we're looking at each other, and isn't this cool. We're communicating by looking at each other and it's a completely different way of communicating with my dogs to what I was told to do back then. I did try to do it and I went. Well, this is something I don't like. This, this is not right. My dog doesn't like it. Why am I doing?

Dr Edward: 9:27

this with gazing with your dogs. Do you think that's a dopamine dominant hormone thing? Or oxytocin?

Ness Jones: 9:34

oh, I don't know, um I, I it could be. Yeah, it could be oxytocin. Actually, I that's a good question I can't answer. I would think it'd be oxytocin?

Dr Edward: 9:44

Actually, that's a good question. I can't answer.

Ness Jones: 9:45

I would think it'd be oxytocin. Yeah, yeah, probably I might have misspoken, no that's all right.

Dr Edward: 9:50

I'm just curious about it because you know positive reinforcement training is very much a dopamine-driven type hormonal profile. Because you're giving treats, that's a dopamine hit. Every time they get a treat it's a dopamine hit. It's stimulating and it's not necessarily really good at building relationship and certainly I'm more and more interested in finding ways to have oxytocin dominant interactions while I'm working with animals yeah, yeah, yeah.

Ness Jones: 10:18

No, I I didn't misspeak, um, I just said the wrong word. But yeah, it is definitely oxytocin and it is, you can, that connection that you feel when they look. They voluntarily look you in the eyes and you know they're telling you something or trying to, or just even if it's I'm telling you I love you, or um, or I want something, or let's do this together, it's um, yeah, it's completely different to you, will stare in my eyes, but that's that's probably more an adrenaline adrenaline and cortisol dominant hormone profile.

Dr Edward: 10:48

If you're doing that real kind of more threatening thing and certainly with my whippet, if I get this kind of I'm coming to get your energy she goes oh and runs away. But if I come up with a soft gaze, she goes oh and connects and goes deeper with that. So they're very, very sensitive to eye direction and intensity of gaze and movement of your eyes, dogs, much more so than most people realize, I think yeah, yeah, I mean that's just one example of how training has evolved and I mean, look, there are still people in the dark ages.

Ness Jones: 11:20

Um, in terms of the whole yank, and you know you will sit.

Dr Edward: 11:26

And we will zap you with an electric shock if you do not do what I say. All that sort of stuff.

Ness Jones: 11:31

Yeah, but thankfully more and more people are realising that's not the way forward.

Dr Edward: 11:37

Okay, so today we're going to be exploring separation anxiety, so I wonder if you could tell me a little bit about what separation anxiety is.

Ness Jones: 11:47

but I'd really like to hear you talk about what it is from the perspective of the human, but also what it is from the perspective of the dog okay, so it separation anxiety is is the blanket term, is the term that most people recognise, but it really should be called separation-related behaviours because it's not always based on anxiety. And I would suggest that my dog Maya probably it wasn't that she was anxious that we weren't there, it was a little bit of teenage dog boredom, frustration, fear of missing out a little bit of teenage dog boredom, frustration, fear of missing out. So not so much anxiety as that kind of FOMO frustration. So the behaviour was still unwanted and still needed to be addressed, but I wouldn't have said she was anxious so much.

Dr Edward: 12:42

So then let's step back a little bit. How do you define anxiety?

Ness Jones: 12:45

Okay, Well, that's a good question. So when we talk about separation-related behaviours, we're talking about what the dog does when they're left by themselves to their own devices, and that can be. Probably the most common would be barking, howling, crying, whining. Then you have dogs that destroy things, destroy, put holes on walls, destroy the couch around exit points, often because they're trying to get out Dogs that soil. So if they're house trained and the only time they soil in the house is when you leave them, I would say that is definitely anxiety. Some dogs might react. For me, when a dog is, when it's the difference between anxiety and maybe a dog that's a teenage dog, not getting its needs met, not getting enough exercise, not getting enough mental stimulation, I'm not going to class that dog necessarily as anxious. Of course it depends.

Dr Edward: 13:47

So that dog might chew up a whole lot of pillows and then go to sleep yeah, yeah.

Ness Jones: 13:53

So they, they. They come through it, whereas a dog that's anxious may not come through it. They may, just they may react. Then they might be quiet, or you know, stop reacting for a little while, then they might react again. Um, they just can't cope with it. The only time that we see that they don't, that maybe oh, they look nice and quiet now is maybe when they're shut down. So they've got to the point where they don't know what to do, so they just shut down. And often a client or a dog guardian might say, oh, they're nice and calm now. But in fact the dog could actually be in fear and just doesn't know what to do anymore and I suppose I see that kind of freeze suppress state as a tense stillness.

Dr Edward: 14:41

They're not relaxed, you know, you can see in their body language and expressions and they're usually still hypervigilant unless they've gone into complete collapse. But it takes a lot to do that. So can you get dogs that have this separation anxiety that that might not show any symptoms, like can it be kind of hidden? Can you have dogs that you leave them and they might be experiencing distress but not showing anything that the humans can see while people are not there?

Ness Jones: 15:09

I well, if they're not, I mean, when you say not showing, I mean what are we talking about?

Dr Edward: 15:13

I mean well, I suppose I'm thinking about something that if you had a video, you might notice that they're not behaving normally, but they're not being destructive or anything. So you can't tell without video evidence, so to speak. Yeah, so.

Ness Jones: 15:30

So part of the the way of addressing it is having a pretty good understanding of their body language, and that also comes down to the individual. So we need to know what the dog looks, that individual dog looks like when they're happy and relaxed, and that when we know what that should look like, then we can tell what they look like when they're not. So when you say they're not behaving how they normally would, then maybe we can say well, they are tense or they are, like you know, building up anxiety because they're not acting. It's those subtle signs that we talk about all the time. So, understanding doggy body language, how they communicate what they're trying to tell us, and then taking it a step further and looking at your dog specifically. So this is what my dog looks like when he's happy and relaxed. He is lying down in this video, but he's not acting like he would normally.

Dr Edward: 16:29

Maybe he's lying down, but he's hypervigilant.

Ness Jones: 16:31

Yeah, exactly, and he doesn't down, but he's hypervigilant. Yeah, exactly.

Dr Edward: 16:32

And he doesn't settle, and if you're at home he might put his head down and rest. Yeah, something like that.

Ness Jones: 16:38

Mm-hmm, mm-hmm, yeah, yeah, or maybe they just, you know, there's some dogs, for example, my girl, she's 10, she hangs out by the door. She, during the day when I'm here, she'll go and lie down by the door, the front door, just because it's a nice cool area really. But she hasn't got separation anxiety. But if she did, maybe she was lying at the front door but she was tense and stiff and frozen and statuesque sort of thing. I would say, okay, okay, she's normal in the sense that she's lying by the front door, but she's obviously really uncomfortable so from the dog's perspective?

Dr Edward: 18:23

I mean, this is probably not the easiest thing to to say, because we we can't 100 know what the dog's experience is. But what? What's your kind of sense from the dog's perspective of what it's like for them internally to have this separation, anxiety or separation related behaviors, which are generally aroused type behaviors?

Ness Jones: 18:48

yeah, yeah, well, obviously it's kind of. It triggers that fight, flight response, fight, flight, freeze response. Um, that's where we see dogs try to escape. I had one client, kevin he. He was left outside and he climbed up onto the shed roof because it was things right next to the shed um, and shed roof because it was things right next to the shed um, and jumped over the shed roof. He was only a little staffy too and over the fence. So that is, uh, it's flight response, um. And then we you hear of dogs. I haven't had a client like this, but I have heard on more than one occasion some dogs jumping out of two-storyy windows.

Dr Edward: 19:32

Oh, wow.

Ness Jones: 19:33

They're that panicked, I think dogs like that. Their thinking brain leaves them behind. You know there's no one home, they're just reacting. They're not processing things, they're literally just reacting. I have to get out of here. So you get the freeze response, which is the, as you said, you said, frozen, solid kind of. Wherever they are, they can't.

Ness Jones: 19:56

um, sorry, my, my throat's gone all croaky that's all right um, yeah, they, they just freeze, and then you have the dogs. Maybe we could you couldn't call it fight. Well, you, you could call it fight, but it might not look. You know, they're not actually literally fighting, but it could be that they're destroying something. They're, um, they've got their stress and they're trying to download that stress into it. Could be a toy, could be the couch, could be the wall, so yeah, so I think internally it's not great for them that you've got that cortisol reaction. And can you imagine being in fight-flight every time your loved one walks out the door? It would be awful.

Dr Edward: 20:41

What do you think is the emotional state of these dogs when they're left alone?

Ness Jones: 20:47

Well, not great. I mean they're stressed, they're distressed um and they're anxious. I mean I I don't think my girl maya that put the holes in the wall. I don't think that was it. It there was a level of stress, but it is not wasn't based on anxiety. So, and it depends, of course, on the dog. So some dogs have generalized anxiety on top of the separation related behaviors.

Dr Edward: 21:14

So those dogs really are 24 7 fight flight, which is really, really unhealthy yeah, I just spoke with someone who's going to be working with me today and they've got a dog that's got separation anxiety. It doesn't have any other kind of anxiety. I think that's the first dog with separation anxiety in a long time that hasn't had at least one other flavour of anxiety going on as well. Nearly always there's more than one kind, yeah.

Ness Jones: 21:42

I think I've certainly had plenty of clients that have got both, but I also get ones that are anxious about being left. However, it's more a case of they literally haven't learned to be by themselves. So, um, everything else, they're really robust, they're really confident in the big wide world. It's a question I always ask, but perhaps they were adopted during covid and they never learned to be by themselves. So, yeah, the anxiety is still there, but it's just for it's just around being by themselves, because they don't know what they don't know. They're like oh, what is this?

Dr Edward: 22:17

I don't like this so they've never learned how to be by themselves. I reckon that is something that I would really like to explore with you and and see what you think about. So when, when does that begin, and what does it mean about a dog that can't be by itself? And I mean, I think a lot of dogs can't even be by themselves with the humans in the house. They're kind of on top of the human like a rash.

Ness Jones: 22:43

Yeah, yeah, and the lovely flow and effect of this training is that independence comes naturally. So you're not, I don't like creating forced independence. So I know there's probably some trainers out there they're like oh, we've got this puppy or a new dog and it has to be, has to learn to be by itself, so let's lock it in a room or something like that, and all they're doing is anxiety and making that puppy really, really worried about being by itself. So they're not doing it in a kind, gentle way where the dog builds confidence. For me it's about building confidence. Yeah, so there are trainers that unfortunately will refuse to take clients, um, unless the dog is on medication and really you're kidding me right, no, no, this I know of at least one um, maybe two um, I don't know that.

Ness Jones: 23:37

How common it is, I really don't know. I can't answer that because I don't. I don't go investigating, but I'm not one of those trainers. If a dog has generalized anxiety, I will say, yes, go and talk to your vet, maybe. Maybe we need to address this. But if it's just a dog, like we're talking about, that has never learned to be by themselves, then I'm going to say, hey, we just need to teach them to be confident when, when, when they're alone, um, and I think I think there's a big difference. I don't think we need to put dogs on medication if they don't need to be, but in terms of teaching a dog, so I like to draw the analogy of a toddler. So if, if you're a top, if you've got a toddler and you want to teach them to swim, you're not going to take them by the hand, lead them up to the deep end of the pool, yeah, off you. Go see you later. Because what's going to happen? The toddler is going to panic, they're going to scream.

Ness Jones: 24:30

They is going to panic, they're going to scream, they're going to cry, they're going to grunt, but probably you're going to build a fear of water forever, like they're never going to want to go near a swimming pool ever again or a body of water ever again.

Ness Jones: 24:44

And so if we do that to our puppies, if we say, right, well, you're just a dog, get over it, you know, and you should be able to cope with this, because you're a dog, get over it, you know, you should be able to cope with this, because you're a dog, off, you go and I'm out the door, then we're potentially doing that to them, we're doing the toddler, throwing them into the water. Yeah, so what I prefer to do is do it in a kind, gentle way and do it using desensitisation, where the puppy learns confidence in the pool in the water, learns confidence in in the in the pool in the water um, yeah, put them in the shallow end exactly so.

Ness Jones: 25:19

If you had a toddler, you would take them into the shallow end. You'd probably go on with them and you would build their confidence in the water. Um and so same with the puppy or a new rescue, for example, if you don't want to assume that they're going to be okay, or maybe your dog is okay but you move home and it's a completely. If you don't want to assume that they're going to be okay, or maybe your dog is okay but you move home and it's a completely new environment. You don't want to go out to get Nando's for dinner and come back five hours later, you know, and this dog, who's fine normally, is in this new environment and freaking out. So you have to just doing it gradually.

Dr Edward: 25:56

So how much do you think that humans and I think this is often unconscious, by the way, I don't think that humans deliberately do this kind of stuff, but how much do you think humans contribute towards this lack of dogs being able to self-regulate without the human? Because I suppose that's another way that I would look at this is that the dog can't regulate themselves emotionally and physiologically without a human need so how much do humans play a role in it?

Ness Jones: 26:26

do you mean?

Dr Edward: 26:27

in terms of creating this dependence. In a way, it's's a dependence, isn't it? The animal needs the human, or they freak out.

Ness Jones: 26:35

Yeah, I mean in terms of also, how much do humans? I think there can be that needy, I don't know, I don't have a word that's the right way, but I'll use the word needy relationship. So you know. But I'm not one of these trainers that say, well, you know, you must ignore the dog when you come home for five minutes or anything like that. So I for me, it's about when you leave. If the dog, if I got up now, my dogs would all be like where are you going? I don't mind if they follow me around the house and they're really affectionate animals. And if they follow me around the house and they're really affectionate animals and I'm not too worried about that really Do they contribute, I think, in terms of their own anxiety?

Ness Jones: 27:18

Humans, for sure. So when the human is walking out the door and they're anxious about how their dog's going to go, then yeah, or several of my clients have anxiety, so it's anxiety that was already there before the dog came in. Um, I think you as a, as a human, with a dog, with separation anxiety, that's going to make you anxious. But I think if you've already got anxiety and you bring in a dog, that's probably definitely well, it's definitely going to impact the dogs. We know, I've seen it several times when I've got a client and they're doing the exercises and they get to the last step, which is, you know, the target time that we want them to to achieve, um, for that particular session, and I'm watching on a video and the dog suddenly has been doing really well and then suddenly it's been doing really well and then suddenly it's gets really, you know, obviously feeling uncomfortable.

Ness Jones: 28:16

And I'll ask, I'll ask the client, like, are you nervous about this? And I am, or anxious about how that last step is going to go. And it's completely understandable because, yeah, they're so invested in it, they want their lives back, they don't want to feel like christmas any longer, and they'll say yes, whenever I get to that last step, I get worried and anxious and it definitely impacts their dog. So then I'll be saying, right, well, we, you need to do something like take some deep breaths, hang your head down. You know, do that, um, standing forward, fold and put your head down. Um, it's a yoga pose and anybody can do it. And if you couldn't do it standing up, you could do it sitting down and it just helps you calm down, it just helps the brain to feel calmer, and I'll just get them to do something that helps them relax. So the dog does better.

Dr Edward: 29:09

So there is definitely an impact between the dog and the human so, um, would I be right in thinking that you're also trying to help the human become a strong regulatory anchor for the whole system?

Ness Jones: 29:26

yeah, I mean yes, definitely. So um, trying, you know, encourage them to do yoga or meditate or put on some calming music, anything that can help them calm down, and of course then we have the, you know, go for a walk in nature. So I always say you can train five days a week, but I want you to take two days off a week. I want you to remember why you've got your dog. Go out and enjoy them. Go out into into nature, go and have some fun together. Just we'll go and just sit somewhere together in nature and just re, you know, decompress and help help your dog also consolidate the training.

Ness Jones: 30:07

But just go and reconnect with all the good stuff so that you feel better about everything you got to have some fun as you do this, right yeah, yeah, yeah, it's not all work and because I think you you asked me at the beginning about what the humans go through, I think and there's no shame in this, um but I think and I have heard people say, yes, I, I, I am one of these people, but I, I think they can get to the point where they start resenting their dog and that makes them feel guilty and it makes them feel anxious as well, but they can end up resenting their dog because they didn't sign up for this. They wanted to go skipping off into the sunset, absolutely.

Dr Edward: 30:48

Go out and have fun and leave the dog at home.

Ness Jones: 30:55

Yeah, yeah. So I try to encourage them through that as well and get them through that, because it makes me sad that you know they can feel that way and that's not just separation related. It could be that their dog's reactive and they want to go and meet people at the dog park and they can't because their dog's yeah.

Dr Edward: 31:12

So then, what's, what's your kind of pathway to helping people? How do you help people overcome and transcend separation anxiety when they are and you know I've had a number of clients like this too that they cannot leave their home with that. They just can't yeah, um, it's.

Ness Jones: 31:32

It's of all, like I said, body language. We need to have a good understanding of body language, but it starts with a desensitization program so that the dog is feeling confident about the alone time, and so it is gradual exposure, so we don't want to flood the dog.

Dr Edward: 31:50

So what we often hear, and I would say 99.9% let's define flooding, because people out there might be going flooding. What the hell does flooding mean? I've never heard of that.

Ness Jones: 32:02

Yeah, yeah. So I would say 99% of my clients have done this. And it's the old oh, you've got a dog that can't be left alone. Well, they're just a dog, let them bark it out, they'll be fine. So we're forcing the dog into a situation that it's uncomfortable with and instead of using gradual exposure therapy where we're just saying, just do it and so, instead of instead of saying, okay, so I'm, I'm terrified of cockroaches. Yeah, you know, you're in australia. I don't know what, how big they are where you are, but but in Queensland they're pretty scary. I'm so terrified of cockroaches I won't go near a dead one. I've told my husband because in Queensland cockroach season is in summer. I don't know about down there, but you know so maybe from now until March, april, cockroaches, and I can't even go near dead ones. And I told my husband, because he's English, if he goes back to England, he's not allowed to go during cockroach season because I don't know what to do if there's a cockroach.

Ness Jones: 33:11

He bought a box of baits and there's a photo of a cockroach like on the outside and I'm like I can't even go near the box of eggs you must put a sticker over that image yeah, all right so, but so flooding would be like if you were using gradual exposure therapy, you know, in a setting you know health, a mental health setting, I guess you would maybe get that photo of the on the box, would have it for me about five miles away yeah, you know a long distance away, and maybe that would be my first exposure to the scary cockroach and that's a photo on a box, and then you might gradually move it closer and closer and closer and then maybe you'd have one in a jar or something. You know you would use that gradual expression.

Dr Edward: 34:03

Yeah, yeah, theoretically, you titrate the intensity of the stimulus to a point where the being can stay. Regulated might be another way to say it.

Ness Jones: 34:12

yeah, yeah, yeah, theoretically that would be a good way for me to get over my fear of cockroaches. Now if you were going to flood me with cockroaches instead of doing this, let's not even go there.

Dr Edward: 34:26

I think everyone knows what we're talking about here. I think even talking about flooding you with cockroaches would cause you some distress.

Ness Jones: 34:34

I don't think we need to do that. Yeah, so you get the idea. It would be like a wall of cockroaches coming at me or locking me in a cupboard with cockroaches.

Ness Jones: 34:42

Yeah, yeah which is a good point, actually. So I do use this analogy because I've got a little bit of claustrophobia and I think this is a really important point to talk about dogs and crates as well, as you know kind of a dual fear. So you've got um, maybe they've got containment phobia, which is pretty much the same as claustrophobia, and they're scared of being by themselves. So the analogy I draw is oh, we're gonna be trigger stacking yeah, yeah.

Ness Jones: 35:11

So so the I got claustrophobia and I'm scared of cockroaches. So if you locked me into a cupboard or something and filled up full of cockroaches, I would start screaming and crying and let me out, let me out, which would be the reaction that a dog has to being, you know, help, help, help. Somebody come and help me. When nobody came, I would shut down and that would be what that looks like. Oh, I don't know what to do anymore. And so, for a dog, obviously, then we see that correlation as well.

Dr Edward: 35:42

Yeah, I remember with with our little whippet, um, when we got her, we did put her in the crate, but we were right there with her and she expressed a lot of very loud outrage at that. Even you know, even though we were right there, she still wasn't very happy with it and I spent a lot of time teaching her about being in the crate and using relaxing touch and staying there and and helping her stay in the crate with me being right there with her and helping her regulate until she could regulate enough to stay in there and be be okay with it. And now she goes in there by herself. She loves it. You know she sleeps in there every night. We say in your bed and she says, oh, I'll jump up on your bed, just hopeful mine are on my bed at night, crates for um dogs of separation anxiety.

Ness Jones: 36:31

I mean, as you say, some dogs find it like they enjoy they, they find that they're safe space, but um many dogs do better without being confined in a crate, when we leave them by themselves, of course.

Dr Edward: 36:43

I'd agree. I'd agree.

Ness Jones: 36:46

But yeah, some dogs will take themselves off into a crate, but most dogs do better with more space.

Dr Edward: 36:52

But the dogs that take themselves off into a crate, I would say that nearly all of them had been taught that the crate is a safe place and they'd been given time and space to make that crate somewhere that they feel safe and comfortable in.

Ness Jones: 37:05

Yeah, no, no, I think like again, it's that whole claustrophobic containment phobia thing. Some dogs are perfectly happy to be in the crate, except when you're not there.

Dr Edward: 37:22

Okay, cool, that's good to know. So what you want to do is desensitisation, slowly and carefully and kindly, in a way that the dog doesn't escalate into that hot orange red zones where their brain turns off and they're probably actually then reinforcing the problem.

Ness Jones: 37:41

yeah, yeah, so I talk about, um, safe absences, and those are the ones where the dog feels comfortable and confident. Um, we talk about thresholds, so the easiest way of explaining that is is the panic line. So anything above there the dog is doing all those reactions we don't want. So the barking, howling, crying, the destruction of things trying to escape, soiling, um, if they're over threshold, then that's going to undermine our training. So I talk about keeping them in the safe zone. But what we also have to recognize is that before we hit that panic line, there could be a lot of subtle signs and a lot of things that the dog's displaying. What they're trying to tell you. Oh, I'm starting to feel uncomfortable with this. That's why understanding their body language is so important.

Ness Jones: 38:33

Yeah, and then if we have a safe absence dog has a safe absence at whatever time the dog's comfortable with and we know what the threshold is, then we hopefully can gradually increase that time and the threshold.

Dr Edward: 38:49

Here comes the whippet. If you're on video, you can see Jen. Oh, the naughty, naughty whippet who's grown I don't know a few inches in the last month.

Ness Jones: 38:58

How beautiful.

Dr Edward: 38:59

He's very, very lovely. Yeah, four inches in the last month. He's beautiful.

Ness Jones: 39:01

He's very, very lovely. Yeah, he's got a lovely face.

Dr Edward: 39:04

Not unusual that we have a dog. Come and join us in the podcast, because that's what we do so are there any kind of misconceptions around separation, anxiety around how to deal with it, around the whole journey that you think it's important for people to be aware of?

Ness Jones: 39:22

Yeah, I mean I mentioned the whole let them bark it out thing. Most of my clients, as I said, by the time they've got to me they've tried all the things and that is one of them and they all say it made them worse. So that's one. Some dogs a robust dog that's, you know, better able to cope with life might be fine, but for many dogs it's actually a negative for them and it can set them back and make their lives, make their absences a lot harder for them. Unfortunately, there's some people that are a little bit accusatory and will say well, you caused this.

Dr Edward: 40:01

Oh you bad human. You made your dog anxious.

Ness Jones: 40:05

You spoiled your dog and this is your fault, which is not helpful at all. I had one lady in my Facebook group and she said she had a friend who's no longer a friend. But she said that. The friend said to her well, you caused this problem because you took your dog to the park, you took your dog out, you took it to the groomers or you brushed it or something along those lines, and what you should really do is chain that dog up in the backyard.

Dr Edward: 40:36

Well, that's not helpful, though I do believe that humans, mostly unwittingly, can contribute to the problem.

Ness Jones: 40:43

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yes, probably, I think more so in the sense that maybe they expect too much from the dog before it's ready.

Dr Edward: 40:56

Yeah, I think the other thing is that humans well, in my experience, in my practice, is that humans are really really bad at boundaries with dogs really bad at understanding how to express boundaries and how to um express boundaries around close personal space, and I think that dogs can become kind of use the human as a drug to regulate and not learn how to be on their own, even with the human.

Ness Jones: 41:22

Yeah, and we do have to teach them to be by themselves, oh absolutely. Yeah.

Dr Edward: 41:27

Absolutely, we do.

Ness Jones: 41:29

I don't know. I mean I've never. Maybe it's just because I'm a trainer, but I mean my dogs are always with me in general, unless I have to go out. Of course, we love cuddles.

Dr Edward: 41:46

I bet you $50 you can say out to your dog and they would stay out of your personal space if you're asking them to. Yeah, and a lot of my clients never done that, don't know how to do it, have no idea about it, and that's kind of what I'm talking about here.

Ness Jones: 42:01

Right, okay, yeah yeah, let me think on some other. Can I tell you a little story? Yeah, I'd love a story, because when someone's dealing with this issue, the first thing they do is, well, obviously, they're getting unsolicited advice from family and friends, and I'd really like to say if somebody says to you, I'm not a dog trainer, but you should do X, y, z, they're not dog trainers, don't listen to them.

Ness Jones: 42:27

The other part of this is, though, not all dog trainers are specialists in separation-related behaviours. So, as I said before, what I would have told you years ago is completely different to what I would have told you years ago is completely different to what I would have told you now, and we talked about how training is evolving all the time, which is so good, um, so you know, the next thing people do after the unsolicited advice is jump on Dr, google and it's so confusing and it's so much conflicting information out there, um, so then after that they'll go.

Ness Jones: 42:59

Well, I need to get a trainer now. I had this lady reach out to me and she had a beautiful dog called billy. He's a leopard doodle. I think it was a while ago now, um, and she was struggling with this issue and she had tried medication from the vets. Um, she had tried the thunder jackets, the calming chews. Um, the, the separation anxiety. She said it was so bad. When she came home, the dog it was like it was had a bath, it had drawled.

Dr Edward: 43:31

So much yeah, yeah wrenched um.

Ness Jones: 43:35

But billy had a great life. He was like his normal life before this trainer came along. Right, he went. She lived near the beach, so they went to the beach once a day, maybe twice a day. They went to the park, they went on doggy play dates. He was raw fed. She gave him a little bit of obedience training, a little bit of enrichment. He just, I mean, if you were her dog you couldn't want for a better life. It was amazing. He just I mean, if you were her dog you couldn't want for a better life. It was amazing. Lived in the house with her, all that sort of stuff.

Ness Jones: 44:02

His only issue was the separation-related behaviours. So he didn't know what to do. So she reached out to a trainer in her area. This is what he told her. This is why I say, if you're going to find a trainer for this issue, please find one that is certified in separation anxiety issue. Please find one that is certified in separation anxiety.

Ness Jones: 44:25

So he said no more parks, no more dog walks, no more beach, no more doggy play dates, no more enrichment. I knew you said, head on your hands, no more enrichment, no more obedience, no more road, no more attention, no more anything. In fact, you are going to lock that, you're going to buy yourself a pen or a crate and you're going to put it in the backyard now, bearing in mind, this dog was an indoor dog, lived in the house with her, and you're going to leave that dog in that crate or pen. He can have some water, but you're not to feed it. How kind you're not to feed it. You get a bowl of kibble and you're supposed to put it on the outside of the crate, where the dog can smell it but can't access it, and you don't feed that dog until I tell you to. And that is going to cure your dog. Separation anxiety.

Dr Edward: 45:13

Well, it might turn the dog into a shutdown zombie, but that's about all I did. Put my head in my hands because that is just the worst advice I think I've ever heard anyone give.

Ness Jones: 45:25

Yeah, it would make it ten times worse, and can you imagine the damage that would do to their relationship?

Dr Edward: 45:33

Oh God, yeah. And you know, I mean we could just quickly say that aversive training in general damages relationship with your dog, so don't do it.

Ness Jones: 45:41

Yeah, yeah. So she actually bought the crate or the pen, I forget which and she put it in her backyard and then she thought what am I doing? I can't do this to my dog. I love my dog. And so then she reached out to a Facebook group and found me. But, yeah, thank goodness, thank goodness.

Dr Edward: 46:00

That is frankly horrible yeah.

Ness Jones: 46:06

It's scary, yeah. So yeah, I just urge people to be cautious about who they contact for help.

Dr Edward: 46:13

Oh look, absolutely, and I agree with you Absolutely. And sometimes these dogs do need medication. By the way, sometimes you get better outcomes with medication and sometimes you get great outcomes without medication.

Ness Jones: 46:26

I think one of my big things is, as a holistic practitioner, is you've got to be open to all the possibilities for treatment and not fundamentalist I think, talking about vets as well, I think it's important to note that a dog that's in pain maybe or has allergies so arthritis, allergies, gastro issues I always encourage people to go and get a vet check and rule out any physical issues that might be going on, because that can certainly impact and I've had numerous clients where they've been doing really well with their training and then the allergies hit and we've gone backwards and we've had to address that to be able to move forward. The other thing is we've got to recognise that an older, senior dog might, you know, they might be going blind or, you know, losing their sight or their hearing, or they've got arthritic pain and they're just cognitive decline.

Ness Jones: 47:22

So all these things are important to know, and that's where the vets come in, for sure.

Dr Edward: 47:28

Absolutely Awesome. So we're going to wrap this up with a couple of final questions that we'd like to ask. What do you think is humanity's biggest blind spot when it comes to your work and and our shared journey of healing and evolution as humans on this planet? Our biggest blind spot in relation to separation anxiety well, relation to dogs and life and anything and everything really. It's another one of these big questions.

Ness Jones: 48:00

Yeah, I think it is changing, thank goodness, but I think people there's still a lot of people out there that it's a dog, it should do what it's told. They don't see the creature in front of them, and it applies to all animals, not just dogs, obviously, but as a sentient being, as a being that has emotions and feelings and feels pain, and you know it's just, you know that attitude of it's just a dog. It should just do what it's told. You know, and that's it. And I think that is, as I said, thank goodness it's changing, but I do think that is an issue for some people.

Dr Edward: 48:43

Yeah, I agree, and certainly that has been a historical thing, that animals are just put here by God for humans to exploit and extract whatever they want from them.

Ness Jones: 48:55

Yeah.

Dr Edward: 48:57

That is not good and certainly my very, very strong knowing it goes beyond belief. My strong knowing is that animals have an emotional, mental life of consciousness and feelings just like we do.

Ness Jones: 49:11

Yeah, absolutely yeah, I know for sure. And talking about the whole regulation thing, when my dogs look at me, they it's I can't think of the right word but it's a mutual understanding. They know what I'm feeling, they know who I am emotionally as well, and I hope to think I know where they are.

Dr Edward: 49:33

Look honestly, I believe dogs are way better at that than humans, Way better.

Ness Jones: 49:38

I think they know before we know.

Dr Edward: 49:43

And the final question that we'll leave you all with for this episode, which is all about exploring separation anxiety what is the change that you want to be and inspire others to be in this world?

Ness Jones: 49:56

Hmm, gosh, I think again I think it touches back on that point recognizing that they are animals or beings that have feelings and emotions. And if we can change people's perceptions of is just a dog, then we're building better connections, with connections for the humans and for the dogs. So it's, you know, it's great for the dogs, obviously, to have a human that is seeing them in that light, but I think it's also good for the humans to appreciate that as well. I probably could have worded that better, but yeah, I think you get my point. Yeah, do I answer your question?

Dr Edward: 50:40

I think so. I think what I hear is that you want to show people through your actions and your work that their animals are just as sensitive and emotional and conscious and and beautiful as they are yeah, yeah, for sure, for sure.

Ness Jones: 50:56

And um, yeah, being able to wreck people to recognize that. And for me, just for my, you know, helping people get their lives back is important to me, and just as important as helping the dog learn that it's okay to be by themselves. That's, you know. I like what I do because it is a place for me to help people and dogs.

Dr Edward: 51:23

Beautiful. So where can people find you if they've got an anxious dog and they think, wow, it sounds like Ness would be someone who I can work with online, and I know that you work equally happily online and in person, because in today's world we can reach out anywhere in the world to help people through the medium of the internet. Where can people find you and how can you help them?

Ness Jones: 51:42

Yeah, sure, it's really easy. Just nesjonescom. Just jump on my website. You can book a free 30-minute Zoom call with me. If you can't find a time, then they can just email me at hello at nesjones. Nice and easy com. Hello at nesjonescom and I can rearrange my calendar. But yeah, there's also a free PDF on that website too. So it's kind of drilling down into some of the things that dogs do to help you understand a bit of body language and also the importance of the context of what is happening. You know why the dog might be doing this and is it something to worry about or not to worry about?

Dr Edward: 52:19

Beautiful. Thank you so much, ness, and it's been an absolute pleasure. It's been a really interesting conversation today and um a really important topic to explore in depth. Who knows, we might have you back on for another episode sometime, sometime down the track, but for now we're going to say goodbye to you all and in the meantime, we'd both love you to give your dogs and cats a pat from us, but also, I think, we'd both love for you to be as lovely to yourselves as you are to your animals today.

Ness Jones: 52:51

Yes, absolutely, yes, yes, for sure. Thank you so much, dr Edward. It's been a pleasure and thank you very much for doing this and helping dog lovers around the world and their four-footed fairy friends and horses and all the animals you work with.

Dr Edward: 53:11

And the humans too.

Ness Jones: 53:12

And the humans, yeah.

Dr Edward: 53:14

Beautiful. We'll see you in the next one.