Dr Edward: 0:02

Hello and welcome to the Whole Energy Body Balance podcast. Today we're exploring the life of the indoor cat with Shanti Zinzi, who is very passionate about cats and I love cats too, so we're going to have lots of fun, so welcome. This podcast is a place where we explore all kinds of possibilities and practices that bring greater healing, connection and harmony to pets, people and horses, and we aim to inspire you, to hopefully challenge you a little bit. If you want to grow and create positive changes in your life and in the lives of the beings that you care for, you are in the right place. I'm your host, dr Edward Healing Vet.

Dr Edward: 0:43

I help deeply caring people, pets and horses unfold profound healing and healthy relationships through using the whole energy body balance method, which is a modality. I've created kind training and I practice as a holistic, integrative, intuitive veterinarian all around the world and in person. So I'd love to welcome, try and organise. We've had all sorts of technical challenges today. The computers and things have not been working for us. So Shanti Zinti is an experienced holistic feline behaviour therapist with a diverse background that spans decades in veterinary practices, animal shelters, sanctuaries and wildlands, and her studies encompass a whole lot of natural, ancient medicine, feline and human psychology and behavior, as well as independent planetary stewardship. So we're going to start off with a big question, because big questions always are a good place to start with, I think, anyway. So, shandi, who are you, why do you do what you do and how did you get to this point in your life?

Shanti Zinzi: 1:59

Dr Edward, thank you, delightful to be able to be here with you today and my journey was pretty circuitous.

Shanti Zinzi: 2:09

I always wanted to go into the veterinary field in some capacity but working in veterinary practices as a very young person I realized I wanted to find a different path, find a different path and I studied psychology and behavior postgraduate and somatics and simultaneously worked at veterinary practices in shelters and did a lot of an internship in holistic hospice and rescued a lot of animals and it organically came about that I was applying a lot of what I was learning to the animals that were slated for euthanasia, rehoming them and went on to study, worked for a fantastic pioneer that was a great in tcvm and inspired me to study postgraduate chinese medicine and in california, um, if it's veterinary approved and the person has enough training as far as anatomy, physiology of domestic animals, we can practice at veterinary practices with the vet.

Shanti Zinzi: 3:22

So it's been a really wonderful journey getting here and very circuitous. It feels like the path was laid for me and also because I refuse to accept a bit of that reductionist paradigm which I felt. You know there's more of a tapestry of life and where we were strong, we were sort of strong-arming our animals in the 1990s. That I felt was quite traumatic and um for them and I thought there is another way that is more earth conscious, animal conscious, um, that can facilitate healing and along the way I've met some amazing pioneers in the field, in holistic medicine and um.

Shanti Zinzi: 4:11

Here I am today. I I mean I'm I'm not as active in it now, I'm sort of more working with wildlife, but I'm happy to return to the field and help the animals and the cats and the dogs.

Dr Edward: 4:28

And cats are a real passion for you. Yeah, you really really resonate with cats.

Shanti Zinzi: 4:31

Well, I mean I love dogs just as much. I think I just because of the vacuum in the field. I mean there was really a vacuum here in the eighties and nineties and there I remember being in, you know, in the middle of an exam and people would say, oh, my cats are fighting, there's the abscesses, and people were told like let them work it out, and I just intuitively knew that wasn't the right thing, but I think there was just a lack of, maybe there was a lack of understanding or vacuum and understanding in the field, so it sort of created my niche in feline behavior.

Shanti Zinzi: 5:12

And then working a lot with behavioral animals at the animal shelter in San Francisco, in the government shelter, preparing them for their behavior tests and exams, working with the disenfranchised population that really couldn't afford to see veterinarians, so if they needed to introduce a new animal to the household or they had behavioral problems at home, I was often called upon to assist them.

Dr Edward: 5:37

Okay, so I'm in small animal practice, holistic small animal practice. I reckon I'd be lucky to see one cat for every 20 dogs, and that's been a bit of a common theme. You know, right across my whole career I see way way more dogs than cats in veterinary practice and I kind of wonder if that's another reflection of the same kind of dynamic that you're talking about, in that cats just don't necessarily get the same level of care as dogs do right across the board well, I think I mean thinking back into like my, the original, like employment place as I was working.

Shanti Zinzi: 6:18

There was a fair amount of both I think. Um, yeah, I think there wasn't. I mean mean in the United States I mean dogs are quite popular and cats sort of go in and out of fashion. I think you know sort of the domestic animal, which one is preferred. Cats are a little bit easier. Often, you know, in apartments people can't have dogs or large dogs, or it's landlord prohibitive. But I think I mean there, there there seemed to be like at least I think back into like sort of animal shelter time. There was many dog volunteers, many, many animals, many people taking care of the dogs, but there weren't as many for the felines or the small animals. So I just always sort of go to where I'm needed and I just felt like that path just unfolded for me. You know, you just sort of you find your way. Yeah, I do think there was a fair amount of dogs and cats in all the practices that I actually had worked at or or, you know, at the animal shelter might be a bit more that way in australia perhaps.

Dr Edward: 7:31

So today we're really digging into exploring the life of the indoor cat and the kind of pressures, too, I think, that mean that a lot of cats are indoor and and don't have access to the outdoor. So I'm really curious about what you've got to share with us on what you're saying is a neglected area that can really affect feline health.

Shanti Zinzi: 7:55

Well, thank you so much for the opportunity to share that, and you know I watch a lot of trends and things that change and there's a sentiment that oh, oh, the indoor cat is so much safer yet as time is going on here, especially here they're dying younger and not necessarily meaning they're at the getting you know annual vaccines just some of them are not even getting the flea tick, insecticide being indoor animals and people have a lot more awareness and consciousness of raw diets and healthy, home-cooked diets and they're not choosing dry food. So I sort of am looking further into this and realizing, as, where I live in San Francisco, we're going through these economic, you know, booms and what's happening with development is I started seeing in the past, maybe 14-15 years, lung cancer in cats which I've never seen before, which even in dogs, I mean, I had never seen it before. The particular people I was working with or the vets I was working for, they hadn't seen it either. So that sort of turned on a switch and realizing the amount of development and fine particulate matter and whatever was going on in the homes formaldehyde, with all these whatever we're you know using for building material, fungicides, you know, flame retardants and these things that they're exposed to indoors, that they're not necessarily breathing outside and there was a study that went on in 2023 that was measuring these chemicals in the urine of dogs and the urine of cats and it was found that cats have 23 times the amount of flame retardants than dogs do. Wow, yeah, it's pretty fascinating.

Shanti Zinzi: 9:49

But how I'm understanding that, or how I'm making sense of that, is we're bringing all these new products, cheap fashion sofas and these things that are sprayed with flame retardant into our homes cat beds. They are breathing that. Their noses are so close to it. They are also getting it on their coats and they're ingesting it. Most people keep their. You know they may have an HVAC system and they're not. The cats are not breathing the fresh air, so they're breathing this stale, polluted indoor air and we're not realizing how much that's affecting us and affecting them. And, as I see it, they're just like birds. That's affecting us and affecting them and, as I see it, they're just like birds. They're quite sensitive and a bit of the canary in the coal mine, and it's said that what could happen to us in a couple of decades can happen to a cat in two to three years Disease process.

Dr Edward: 10:39

Oh wow, Just say that again. I think that's important.

Shanti Zinzi: 10:44

Yeah, I think so too, and this is a lot about indoor chemicals and indoor toxins and what is actually in the air. So what can affect a cat in two to three years? So this could be thyroid disease, cancer, asthma. Taking that long to build with cumulative assaults can take a human a couple of decades.

Dr Edward: 11:06

So you're thinking you might take a dog you know five or six years, rather than a cat, two or three. I would think, yeah, dogs are a bit more resilient to this kind of thing, I presume.

Shanti Zinzi: 11:17

And dogs are going outside. We're taking them out, we're walking them, yeah Right. So I think that has a lot to do with it and I think about it too is, you know when?

Shanti Zinzi: 11:27

we're out there taking our dogs for walks, you know we're literally interacting with well, they're interacting with beneficial soil organisms, which the cats are not indoors. There's phytoncides that are released from oaks and cedars and cypress and pine trees, phytoncides that are released from oaks and cedars and cypress and pine trees, and as we're inhaling these essential oils and phytoncides, which are the antifungals of these trees and the antimicrobials, we breathe them, they interact with the immune system and they enhance natural killer cells. So that's an anti-cancer, so what the Japanese have always called forest bathing. And now we're finally catching on in the Western mind and Western science that we are literally enhancing our immune system, enhancing the natural killer cells from breathing what our trees are emitting. And it's dogs going for walks, the same their feet are in the soil, their paws they're breathing this fresh air. They're interacting, they're rolling around in the soil with beneficial soil organisms and the indoor cat does not have access to these things that's true, isn't it?

Dr Edward: 13:40

and cats have evolved to be outside. You know, and I think we well, I think the same thing is true for us humans and dogs and everyone we. We are not evolved to live in a little box with artificial lighting and artificial emfs and, like you said, an incredibly high toxic load in a lot of homes, and I think new homes are probably these days got a much higher toxic load than older homes too yeah, incredibly high.

Shanti Zinzi: 14:09

The older homes they deal with like mold often and the newer homes the toxins are incredibly high. New windows they'll off gas for two years. Any new product, any new paints it's about a two-year off-gassing process. And what we're not quite, you know, aware, you know or conscious of, like our animals, have hundreds, millions more scent receptor cells in their nose. They're so incredibly sensitive and they come into life. Our kittens come into the world. They don't see, but they're smelling for their mom and the queen. It's a very strong, uh developed sense there. So I the another fascinating thing is they have, apparently, cats. They just said that there's a particular protein receptor, the v1r, that humans have two and it differentiates between smells. Cat dogs have about nine and cats have 30, so cats can be better at search and rescue and dogs.

Shanti Zinzi: 15:11

I mean, it's just a matter of training them, and the animal that has the highest is our rats, which, um, in africa they actually do have. Rats do search and rescue and they're better at it than dogs because they can get into small places. But I think, you know, if we just take that into our consciousness and we realize how important their noses are, they have a vomeronasal organ. There's so much information that is coming into their little bodies. So air quality, indoor air, what's happening in the homes, is vitally important to their health and their well-being, as well as their behavior and their cognitive awareness. You know, if we're, if they're in the homes and all the windows are shut, they're we're not stimulating their nasal organs. So I just always ask people to open up the windows and let them smell what's going on outside, you know. So get cross breeze and fresh air.

Dr Edward: 16:09

And it's just a little bit. You know, if it's cold you can still.

Shanti Zinzi: 16:12

I kind of like a lot, you know, when I think about it, because when I look at homes, we often and again, I'm not really quite sure a different part of the world. It's different A lot of people are.

Shanti Zinzi: 16:23

There's a stack effect that happens in buildings, people love to store things in their garages and the you know the VOCs, the high VOCs, the paint thinner, all the chemicals the varnishes and that you know if there's a change in the atmosphere, of pressure, or even if you're closing your garage door, all that stuff comes up through the ventilation system, through the floorboards, comes right into the house. Generally the top floor gets a lot of that. So you know if you're in a two-family, if you're a particular high-rise or wherever you're living, what's going on below you is coming up and the animals and our cats are breathing all of that on top of synthetic carpeting and whatever cleaners or chemicals or fragrances that we're putting on. You know our our hands people are using nail varnish, all kinds of cleaners and these different agents that I don't think we have a conscious awareness of how this affects the neuroimmune system and really affects the thyroid. It affects the respiratory system and no wonder there's an epidemic of asthma in our cats.

Dr Edward: 17:32

Yeah, I totally agree. I think too. Another thing to consider is that these volatile organic compounds are absorbed not only through scent, but through every single bit of the skin, and cats have a larger surface area to volume ratio than most dogs and humans, so they actually absorb a whole lot more right and they're right.

Shanti Zinzi: 17:52

And they're ingesting it right, because they're continually grooming, so they're actually whatever is resting on the outside of their fur they're actually swallowing.

Dr Edward: 18:01

So I feel like they're getting a bit of a triple whammy here with uh toxin load yes, so um, I suppose another reason that cats are indoors is that cats get a bit of a bum rap. In today's world, they're not the most popular creature, right they? People seem to kind of say nasty things about cats. A lot of people have a hate on cats, so I'd love you to explore that a little bit.

Shanti Zinzi: 18:28

Yeah, well, I have a very passionate opinion which I've shared with you about it before and you know, living in different countries myself and just watching the political campaigns and what's happening, I think there's a bit of a diversion. At least continental United States and Japan is different from this, I'll say. Islands may be different, rome is very different, turkey is very different the United States but I think what's happening as I see it, when I started seeing this vilification campaign, where they started talking about here, where I am feral, cat shooting day and that you know they're eating up the ground, foragers and the birds, I started looking at where these studies were coming from and where the funding was, and Monsanto was funding Audubon and I thought you know the fascinating part is there's one.

Dr Edward: 19:23

Why would Monsanto be funding that kind of research? What's your thoughts? That kind of makes me go. What the heck why?

Shanti Zinzi: 19:31

I think a diversion campaign a little, because the real, in my opinion, the huge eco-destroyers are the corporations.

Dr Edward: 19:38

Yeah.

Shanti Zinzi: 19:38

This is the insecticides and the herbicides and the glyphosates and the atrazine and what's on the food crop.

Shanti Zinzi: 19:44

That's killing our pollinators. So even this latest neonicotinoid is just terrifying, which destroys the nervous system of the bee, and one single. In America we've got corn crops and wheat crop One single corn kernel will kill a songbird or 80,000 bees. But yeah, instead of focusing on the food supply or agribusiness or agri-corps, we sort of put all of this blame onto the feline, into domestic felines. Now in the United States we have six wildcats. So our animals, our birds, they're very used to predators. Six wild cats, so our, our animals are birds, they're very used to predators.

Shanti Zinzi: 20:27

I'm out there, pretty aware of when there is a predator nearby, predator nearby, they're warning each other. There's warning, so you know, other than maybe a very young one who isn't quite aware, um, and is feeding bird, birdseed off the floor, which a cat can easily get. I think we're unfairly it's a little bit of a. It's not quite a red herring, but we're taking a percentage of a truth and we're embellishing it and we're creating a very divisive narrative that has in the United States people are at each other's throats about outdoor cats. I know that where in Australia it's not even legal to have them outside and I do have a feeling we may be moving towards that, because it is a very inflamed topic and people aren't really taking enough time to unpack the narrative. I think there's a corporate agenda that's behind it that's just pointing our attention in one direction.

Dr Edward: 21:29

Well, I hadn't thought of that. But you know, I know that all these big companies are very, very good at misdirection and look at that, look at that, rather than noticing what they're up to. And you also mentioned that there's a historical kind of thing where cats have been demonized going back a long time. Yeah, I mean, we go back far enough. They were back in the egyptian times, of course.

Shanti Zinzi: 21:54

They were very much venerated, but then we came more to european times and things changed a bit yes, and that was in the um, medieval times, the middle ages, and you know I do tend to look at, you know, historically, there's the ebbs and flows of life and opinions and popular opinions and domestic cats or I mean I mean, call them domestic cats, we they, because they befriended us and we actually made them to be mousers or, you know, because there was this symbiotic relationship between cats and humans, we've taken them across the globe, we've employed them to eat the mice on ships and we've taken them to other countries. Now we're labeling them invasive pope at the time where they were burning people at the stake for witchcraft and herbalism. That also mentioned that black cats were, you know, sort of. He vilified them in a sense that they were almost like demon spawn.

Shanti Zinzi: 22:54

And some historians will actually say that due to the fact that they were killing cats in Western Europe at the time that the plague became out of control, because the black rat population exploded, because there were less cats taking care of keeping the rodent problem down, which to me is fascinating. I can't say if that's 100% factual reality, but I think that's a very interesting perspective and of course, yes, cats became, could have carried the plague at the time because of the fleas, but I just found that to be interesting that a few people had pointed out, in certain countries in europe, where the animals or the cats were vilified and also burned at the stake, along with the witches, that the plague was out of control and decimated a lot more humans. There was a higher mortality in the humans, which I think that's just a fascinating thing to explore.

Dr Edward: 23:55

Kind of unintended consequences on steroids, isn't it? Yeah, you also have this thing about. What was it that you said? I think you said that you have this thing about planetary care for the planet independent planetary stewardship. What do you mean by that?

Shanti Zinzi: 24:29

um, I think it's a matter of understanding the tapestry of life. I I like to, I mean my mind. I have the mind of an explorer, so I like to often explore indigenous paradigms and I think, as a planetary steward, we're here to protect the planet, its other sentient life, which of course includes the domestic animals, the wild animals, flora and fauna, and to treat all sentient life with the amount of reverence we would of our own family.

Dr Edward: 25:03

I love to hear that. I'm very much in agreement with that and I think that pretty much all of humanity's and the planet's problems would be rapidly cured if if humanity the majority of humanity could shift to that mindset.

Shanti Zinzi: 25:16

Yeah, I really do and I you know the sad part. I did feel there was a time we were moving toward that. But you know, post-pandemic, there was a lot of narratives that happened that were fed to us as we were sitting in front of computer screens and TVs and our phones and a lot of this paradigm came down on us that was very reductionist, empirical paradigm that is not very planet-friendly, it's not a steward of the planet, um, the sort of you know this, this, this narrative that I feel is, is very empirical science paradigm. It's not a holistic lens or view, um, of what's happening on the planet or disease process or even the virus process. So I feel that we've made a little bit of a regression in humanity, that we have to get back on track, because there was a lot of narrative that came forward. You know, suddenly we started using a lot of bleach again and certain endocrine disruptors.

Shanti Zinzi: 26:21

And it just became a very, very divisive time and now that we're so polarized, you know, I feel like there's almost like this, this the psychologist in me is going to say Stockholm syndrome, that we were, all you know, so terrified that we're now like taking these narratives, and you know, I mean it's. It's very volatile here right now in the United States, especially post election. The left and the right.

Shanti Zinzi: 26:45

A lot of that was created. I grew up in a city and live in a city now. That was very independent-minded and I don't find that any longer. I find suddenly there's a very strong line of trust to whatever the corporate mainstream narrative is, a very strong line of trust to whatever the corporate mainstream narrative is, and that corporate mainstream narrative, in my opinion, does not promote planetary stewardship. It promotes a lot of polarization between each other as humans, and how we treat animals, how we treat the planet and even boiling down to how we're viewing our domestic cats.

Dr Edward: 27:23

Well, something that just kind of popped into my mind while you were talking is that authoritarian type thinking is the opposite of this whole planetary stewardship too, because in all the Indigenous peoples there was not really an authoritarian thing, there was a very everyone was part of everything and everyone is in relationship to everything else. I sort of wonder if part of the reason that cats are so demonized is because they are independent. You know they are. They do not bow to human authority whatsoever, whereas dogs most dogs they're very much um. I don't know if subservient is the right word, but they're very much um. I don't know if self-serving is the right word, but they're very they. They look up to humans and do whatever the humans want, whereas cats are like well, screw you, I'm a cat, I do what I want. What do you think of that? Do you think that could be part of these deeper dynamics that affect how humans behave and their impact on cats?

Shanti Zinzi: 28:22

that's an excellent point and I think that that, as you're saying that, it made me sort of think back to, like the patriarchy if I cannot control you, I will demonize you. You know that goes back to the times of women, animals. You know cats, I mean. It's a fantastic point. And yes, dogs have a very pack mentality and they're looking for their kind, gentle leader which is going to hopefully be their human if the person can step into the role. So they absolutely want to please us. You know, I personally find cats to be just as affectionate as dogs and, yes, I'm a cat person, but I think, yes, they um that that can have a lot to do with it, because they do not need us, they are not trying to please us. So I do think that that is that does affect the psychological mindset towards them and that's perhaps part of the demonization process, as you were saying, saying I mean that could definitely be a factor there you look, I love cats.

Dr Edward: 29:29

I've got a cat. He's big and fluffy and he's not the smartest cat in the world, but he thinks he's pretty beautiful and he knows he's pretty beautiful and he comes and cuddles up with us and he's very friendly too, but at same time he's very different to the dogs, very, very different. So what do you tell people? To help keep their cats healthy? Now, if people are constrained and here in Australia cats are not a native animal, mind you, there's 5 billion feral cats all over Australia. So why they're demonising the domestic cats, I don't know either quite it doesn't make much rational sense. But no, your country there's native cats, so that shouldn't be such a problem. But what do you? What's your advice? How can people change what they do with indoor cats, if they do have these constraints, to hopefully not make them sick early and die young?

Shanti Zinzi: 30:26

well, I, I think there's some. There's a different, like foundation practices, right, right, our relationship with touch, which is your fantastic web program, um, how we're actually, uh, how we're feeding them. So, you know, obviously promoting a, a non-processed diet, raw diet or home cooked diet, feline, biologically appropriate. I think we need to take the outside elements into the home. If they have to be, you know, if it's deemed legal, they have to be inside, or the person prefers it that way. Take the outdoor element into the inside and to me that looks like lots of plants, whether they're native plants to the area or plants that are actually such as, uh, some like moss, boston, ivs, the, what they call the snake plant.

Shanti Zinzi: 31:19

There's a lot of plants that are actually cleaning formaldehyde out of the air. So, I think, green up the home and it, you know, apparently, I mean there's a lot, it's a lot of plants. It takes a green thumb, but there was a particular study that was saying, well, to get the air completely clean inside the home, what would you need? And you probably need one plant for every square foot of home but it's a lot of plants, but imagine how fresh the air would be.

Shanti Zinzi: 31:47

So I ask people to you know, green up as much as I can. You can add the catnip whether or not they like catnip or certain herbs that are attractive to cats. Bring the soil into the home. I mean this could just be pots of soil, vats of soil that you know that they're actually can roll around in it, that they're getting some kind of benefit from actual soil. There's so many, like we were saying a little earlier, the beneficial soil organisms that exist in soil that we're deprived of.

Shanti Zinzi: 32:18

Keep the windows open as much as you can, four to eight hours a day, preferable I mean that's always weather dependent so that they can actually smell what's going on outside. There's so much in that vomeral nasal organ that they're registering. There's even a sense of time where they can tell you know, last week there was coyotes or particular wildlife that passed by two weeks ago last night. I mean there's so much information that's cognitively stimulating them if they're accessing that fresh air. I ask people if they can. You know there's a few certifications for clean that are green certifications. Whatever they're taking into the home, what is the gots um certification for textiles?

Shanti Zinzi: 33:09

yeah, there's another one that's for sofa.

Shanti Zinzi: 33:12

You know organic products that aren't, that are okay for the home, that um, uh, that are registering it's not really dangerous amount of emissions and there's, um, certain things that you could find like that are baby blankets for humans, because a lot of moms are pretty concerned that their babies are breathing flame retardants and absorbing it through their skin.

Shanti Zinzi: 33:36

So instead of investing in all these like plastic toys and these, these cat beds and all these things that we think are spoiling our cats, we should just go out into nature and get some leaves and pick up some twigs and get some soil and, you know, let them play with things that are, um, are found in nature that they find quite stimulating and attract the birds. If you like. You know you could if you want to put a feeder. I mean, there's always some problems with that because of bird flu but, like in my area, we have a native hummingbird, so all we do is we put some pink flowers or a bougainvillea out in the window and the hummingbirds one that lives here year-round will be feeding there. So the hummingbird is safe on the other side of the window and the cat is entertained yeah, so you've got that's enrichment right.

Dr Edward: 34:27

So you're bringing the outdoors indoor in a way like plant life is not just enrichment, it's also cleaning the air, but bringing things from nature into the cat's life inside the home to make a difference yes, definitely, and I think for their health too.

Shanti Zinzi: 34:45

You know, we have to be very aware of gas appliances um there's benzene, nitrogen dioxide, carbon monoxide, and we're getting a lot more than we think we are if we have gas appliances. This is a terrible fact and this is a reason why it's outlawed in new york city. If you're buying, if you're building a brand new um apartment structure or complex, you're no longer allowed to use gas appliances because of how it's harming human health. So pets are getting it before we are. So I always advise people and I do it myself is invest in one that pilots use, because it's a lot more sensitive for carbon monoxide detector and you can also clean the air with those not a HEPA filter, but those heavy-duty carbon filter air filters such as IQ Air, which is made in Switzerland, or Air Pure, which is made in Canada I think it's about like a 22 or 23-pound filter, and it'll clean smoke and formaldehyde and different things out of the actual air for every 500 square feet of space.

Dr Edward: 35:52

And you can use ionizers, I would imagine too, to increase the vitality and the health of the air in the house. Yes, and I suppose you know, buy organic, non-toxic. Get rid of artificial fragrances out of your life, because they're I find them dreadful for me and they're a terrible, terrible thing for animals.

Shanti Zinzi: 36:14

Yeah, and it's fascinating because you know it's some of us, some people with chronic illness are incredibly sensitive and you know I'm always saying, well, you know, that's actually a gift because we're realizing that these poisons are affecting us. So it's actually as terrible as it makes us feel our body's giving us a gift to sensitize us to that.

Shanti Zinzi: 36:34

But, yes, as much as you can, get the cleaners out and if you have to have these particular products which most people put under their kitchen sink in the United States, I always ask them to buy an airtight container and store it outside of the home so that it's not affecting the air in the home If you need a bleach, but if we go back to baking soda, white vinegar and lemon there's a lot, you know, like a sort of these natural cleaning products. It's going to save our respiratory system. It's going to save our lungs. It's going to save our immune system. To save our respiratory system, it's going to save our lungs. It's going to save our immune system. It's going to save our cats. And these corporations that are making billions of dollars off of us are, you know, going to have to change their game plan with what they're offering the public what about taking cats for walks?

Dr Edward: 37:23

is that a good idea?

Shanti Zinzi: 37:25

I think it's great. I think my very first cat, you know I found her in was Washington Square Park in New York City. She moved around all over the world. She moved to Japan, she moved to San Francisco with me and I took her on walks, I took her on a harness, but she was the type you know there's a continuum in the personality the very shy, terrified, stranger danger cats, it's going to be very hard to do. But very shy, terrified, stranger danger cats, it's going to be very hard to do. But those very social animals you can train them. And I think you know there's certain times a day, like I would maybe go out at 10pm and I had a great big gentle Rottweiler, take the two of them out and I wouldn't go very far because she didn quite, you know, walk very far, but we just go outside and sit outside and she loved it so, if you can do, it, I think it's great.

Shanti Zinzi: 38:14

Or when people have decks or lanai or even those small areas in the yard, such as people will put up those catios, which are fantastic. They're protecting the wildlife is not being accessed and the cats can breathe that fresh outdoor air and see this entire, the cornucopia of life that is actually out there, with the insects and the trees and the breezes and all those chemical messages that are on the breezes that are so important for them. They have direct access to that and we don't have to worry about occupying them like we're a dog.

Shanti Zinzi: 38:50

So for me, a dog's a lot more work and I love dogs but, having to entertain them cognitively is a little bit exhausting where a cat is so much easier that's the beauty of the cat, being a more independent kind of creature, right yes, there you go, that's right okay, I think.

Dr Edward: 39:11

Is there anything else that you'd like to to share with everyone that might help people with indoor pets, give them the best life possible?

Shanti Zinzi: 39:20

um, I think you know, if you maybe clean water right, whatever you're, however, you're giving them, putting the water or food in, for example, I think the best product would be a food grade stainless steel or glass because of whatever can be. You know, if there's a chip in that ceramic plate, then there's an actual lead glaze that's inside ceramic that's going to be leaching into their food or their water. So if we can make conscious choices as far as you know everything they have access to keep the dust to an absolute minimum, because these chemicals and molds will actually stick to the dust and where the cats are we're not seeing that that those dust particles. I think if we can keep that to a basic minimum, remember their cognitive stimulation, be very aware of the relationship of, will really, I think, raise our awareness to what's happening inside our animals. So I think if we have these basic foundations covered, we're going to have very happy animals.

Dr Edward: 40:47

Beautiful. Yeah, I love cats and you know anyone out there who has got a hate on cats. Maybe you could just chill out a little bit and appreciate them for the independent wild creatures they are. I think one of the things about cats, too, is that they've still got more of the wild in them than dogs and dogs and, you know, maybe that's another reason they get demonized, because they actually are more wild and and free and and humanity struggles with that sometimes.

Shanti Zinzi: 41:19

I think yeah, I agree with you, um, and you know I always say you know, when people think they're these top predators, I'm like you know, it's not a mountain lion, it's not a tiger, our coyotes.

Shanti Zinzi: 41:30

Here and even just on my corner I have a family of great horned owls which are enormous, and they are taking the neighbors' pans and chickens and they actually have taken kittens. So you know, it's a whole can of worms, but cats are not top of the food chain in the United States. So I think we have to really kind of look at that argument about that eco-destroyers and really put that into perspective and realize that you know, when we're emotionally charged about a certain issue which of course we all want to save the environment and ecology and wildlife and these small animals we have to really disengage that emotional aspect and look deeper into what's actually happening and realize all sentient life there's a tapestry of wonder here that exists where our pets, our animals, our cats, you know the flora, the fauna ourselves, and if we could just offer respect and care that, um, there would be a lot happier planet it would be.

Dr Edward: 42:45

So we're going to close up with a couple of questions, and the first one is kind of the wake-up call what do you think is humans biggest blind spot when it comes to our shared journey of evolution and healing and wellness?

Shanti Zinzi: 42:58

well, this kind of dovetails a little into what I was saying earlier about mainstream narratives and corporate narratives. I you know there's a lot of. What's happened in Western reality is there was a monopoly on our thinking process. From indigenous reality of how we see the earth, how we see medicine and healing, that became an allopathic model. That has monopolized our thinking and it is an empirical, reductionist model that will measure the world through the five senses. That does not measure mind or consciousness. Healing does not happen without mind or consciousness or the soul.

Shanti Zinzi: 43:39

So for me, when we listen to these narratives, I think it's what's? It's harming us, it's harming the planet. I think that's my biggest, probably one of my biggest issues of contention, because there's major corporations that have studied us and mass psychology to sell us their products and to really create um. I think what I would consider a fear model that is. I mean, I just see it as an outgrowth of the patriarchy. It is not a model of togetherness or a model, an earth conscious model, but a more of a um, a corporate model. I mean, what are they trying to sell us and who is benefiting from that?

Dr Edward: 44:34

Well, not the average human being, not any of the animals, not the environment, just a few people making large amounts of money.

Shanti Zinzi: 44:44

The billionaires right, just the billionaires getting richer as the earth is struggling more and our animals and our humans are struggling.

Dr Edward: 44:54

And what is the change that you want to be and inspire others to be in this world?

Shanti Zinzi: 45:00

Well, I think I sort of always went to the gym. You know a different beat. But I'd like to inspire change in the way of getting people back to their innate nature of intelligence, inner intelligence, of connectedness and trusting their inner voice. That I think it's specifically in the Western paradigm and in schools it's programmed out of us. You know, we're taught to sit in these desks and look in these computers and everything is kept in a box as opposed to going from a heart sense where you know our heart is even more powerful than the brain. Our electromagnetic waves from our heart, what we're getting out of. To listen to those voices that are coming from inside of us, our intuition, and to read from that To protect what is under your responsibility, whether it's your child and you're not agreeing with something your pediatrician's telling you, or if you don't think it's proper to put the insecticide on your cat every 30 days because that's cancer causing. I think we need to go back to listening to ourselves, because the answers are in our elders, they're in our indigenous populations.

Shanti Zinzi: 46:21

Those of us that went through the shamanic healing are children, our children. There's an innocence there that is very connected to life and the flowers and seeing the sacredness in the life around us that unfortunately gets brainwashed out of us. So I'd like for us to go back to that. There's a bit of an innocence there, but there's an extreme intelligence that is very respectful to the planet and I think that is the only thing that will save the planet moving forward, or at least the ecosystems. I mean, the earth will be here long after the humans are gone, but the ecosystems will save. That Is that indigenous knowledge that is innate and intuitive to us. That is what I would consider more of a heart knowledge.

Shanti Zinzi: 47:03

And if we have a brain, heart coherence which is just not using one part of the brain, just not the neocortex, but all engaging the entire aspect of the brain, the cells in the body, the entire, you know that our liver I mean in chinese medicine we feel this. We're getting information in our liver, in our spleen, and you know you look at different languages. In the italian language they talk about feeling things in their liver and you know you can resonate that. They talk about feeling things in their liver and you know you can resonate that in how the Chinese see things in their liver. Or I feel that in my spleen and I think that speaks of an inner intelligence there that is sort of come out of the language that we're not using any longer. So the more we get back to that, I think, the more we get back to that, I think, I feel like the road forward will be better for all life.

Dr Edward: 47:54

I agree and that is music to my ears what you're saying, and I hope that if there's anyone out there listening who hasn't heard so much of this kind of viewpoint that you let that soak in and you wonder what it could be like to get back to your innate, intuitive, empathic, indigenous kind of art that sees everything as alive and worthy of being in healthy relationship with, and I think if we can all do that, wow, who knows what could happen?

Shanti Zinzi: 48:24

Yeah, and you know, the thing I find is interesting is a lot of people are being shamed out of this because they're worried about cultural appropriation. And when I told people there, we all have our ancestors and all of our ancestors had natural herbal medicine in earth consciousness. It doesn't matter if you are from russia or europe or latin america or anywhere Africa on the planet, they all were natural medicine doctors in our ancestry and they were all very connected. So it's not cultural appropriation. Shamans existed, for example, throughout the entire planet. So I think sometimes, like I find this in the younger generation they're feeling shamed by that cultural appropriation.

Shanti Zinzi: 49:10

I think, no, you know, so, are you Russian? Well, there are so many shamanic, there's so much shamanic wisdom in Russia. You just have to get in touch with their ancestry, just follow that line back. But there's, you know, as Carl Jung would say, the collective unconscious that exists in different parts of the planet and there's the truth to every culture and every land. And you know one point we were all from africa, we migrated outward, um, but I, I, I don't want people to, oh, I don't want the young generation to get shamed out of following certain paths.

Dr Edward: 49:48

I hear you and thank you so much for your time and energy today. I really appreciate it. It's been a really interesting conversation. Let's do everything we can to make our indoor cats happy. We're lucky here that my cat is an indoor-outdoor cat. We live in an old home that doesn't have a whole lot of those kind of toxic issues, so we do have a gastro. But thank you, I really appreciate it. It's been a broad-ranging, really interesting conversation and for all of you out there listening, I hope you've enjoyed it and I hope to see you back in the next episode.

Shanti Zinzi: 50:21

Thank you, dr Edward, it was wonderful.

Dr Edward: 50:24

Thanks, Anne.

Shanti Zinzi: 50:25

I appreciate it so much.