Dr Edward: 0:00

Hello and welcome to the Whole Energy Body Balance podcast, where we explore all kinds of possibilities, practices and ideas that bring greater healing, connection and harmony to pets, to people, to horses and hopefully to the planet.

Dr Edward: 0:15

We aim to inspire you, to challenge you in a beautiful way and hopefully get you creating positive changes and healing in your life and in the lives of the beings that you care for. And if you're interested in healing and making the world a better place, you're in the right place. I'm your host, dr edward, the healing vet, and I help deeply caring people, pets and horses unfold profound healing and healthy relationship through somatic awareness, loving, therapeutic touch, intuitive, intuitive perception, kind training and energy work. I also practice as a holistic veterinarian and healer all over the world, and today I would like to introduce you to our speaker, ruth Hatton, who is an animal naturopath, nutritionist, herbalist and energy worker. She's very dedicated to enhancing the wellbeing of animals through natural and holistic methods. So, ruth, I'm really excited to have you on our rebooted version of the podcast here for the whole energy body balance Welcome.

Ruth Hatten: 1:21

Me too, thank you. Thank you, welcome me too, thank you, thank you. You know, we did this ages ago on facebook, like five, seven, eight years ago, I don't know if you remember. We did a facebook live on your facebook. Yeah, it was so interesting and funny and amusing to like watch us back then me mostly hilarious.

Dr Edward: 1:43

Yeah, we've all. We've all grown a bit since then, hey, so with the podcast, we start off with a big question, because big questions are a good thing in life, I reckon. So who are you, why do you do what you do, and how did you get to this point in your life?

Ruth Hatten: 1:59

Good question and, for the audience, I have not been given this question in advance, so this is really just me, you know no progression.

Ruth Hatten: 2:07

So I'm just going to let it roll. So, who am I? Let's start with that. I mean, yeah, who am I and how did I get here? So I mean, for me, the biggest thing about me and the biggest thing that really centres me and focuses me and grounds me and the reason for my existence is animals and they. They take up the biggest place, the biggest space in my heart, and I haven't always worked in the field, in a field relating to animals.

Ruth Hatten: 2:41

I was a lawyer for 17 years, working in like the commercial corporate sector, mostly construction, and you know there weren't no animals, um, and then I started to just kind of like I guess there was a, my soul started to speak to me, um, and I, you know, came across animal law and I and it was really new back then it wasn't, there really wasn't much of it in Australia, um, it was big in the US.

Ruth Hatten: 3:10

But I started, I found out about it, I learned about it. I ended up becoming an animal lawyer, um, and then that really got me to get the feel for, oh my god, my career, my work that I do, it has to focus around animals, um, and so I actually went back to the normal legal. I left that job and I came back to Brisbane and went back into the old kind of legal world that I was in. I was like I cannot do this till the end of my days, and so, long story short, I decided to become an animal naturopath, and then the energy work came in as well, and that's always expanding, um, but it was. It all comes back to that core value, that core essence of who I am in my heart, which is all about the animals. Um, and you know, things have morphed and changed as they do over the years, but that's essentially, you know, like, yeah, everything revolves around the animals for me, beautiful. Does that answer your questions?

Dr Edward: 4:14

well, the point of the question is to have a conversation. I mean, wherever we go with this question, it's not, it's not important, it's. I mean it's important that we be communicating and connecting and exploring. That's what I like to do in these sessions is, you know, we theoretically have a topic, but goodness knows where we'll end up as well, and that's perfect. So what is it about animals that is so inspiring for you, that is so rich and wonderful for you in your life?

Ruth Hatten: 4:44

is so inspiring for you, that that is so rich and wonderful for you in your life. Oh, they're just, you know they don't have the human ego and they're just who they. They're just who they are, you know. There's no, there's no lies, there's no deception. They're just, they're real. They maintain that really ring, really, really strong connection to nature and their true essence. Um, they're not swayed by all the things that humans are swayed by. I have, you know.

Ruth Hatten: 5:17

I was going to say I have complete trust for them. That is the case for every animal except for dogs no, really, no offense dogs because there was an episode a few years back, in the space of like six months, I had um attack or near attack incidents with dogs, and so it really kind of like it made a big difference and I'm much better now because I knew like the way the brain works. It set in place this kind of fear program as a safety mechanism to have that fear because I'd been attacked, um, and then I was like, okay, I need to wipe this, and so I knew that that was going to be wiped with positive experiences of dogs, and so mostly that has been wiped, but there is still sometimes particular dogs if they're off lead or if they're loud and they're barking at me and it comes a bit, I still have that kind of like are they going to attack me? Um, so there's not that 100% trust because of that experience, right, whereas I've never had, I've never had a fear experience with a cat.

Ruth Hatten: 6:29

Um, yeah, I've only ever experienced love, and you know so, and the wild animals will they're. You know, obviously I come across them. That's's not true. There is some fear around snakes. I did stumble across a black-eyed, black-eyed, red-bellied black snake last year in the bush and he was just there off the side of the path and he was all coiled up with his head up and he was just hissing at me and I was like, oh my God, and I was like I'm so sorry, I didn't mean to scare you. I'm going.

Ruth Hatten: 7:04

I'm going because I knew like I know enough about, you know, nature and wild that the snakes are more scared of us than we are of them and so it was just honoring that I was in his environment, right, and I startled my vibrations, as I was, you know, a big, heavy human walking along the earth startled him, and so he reacts the way that he instinctually knows how he was alerting me, you know it's not like he went for me.

Dr Edward: 7:30

Yeah, I'd have to say that I've, I've got a healthy respect for cats. I've been, um, scratched and bitten by cats and I've got a healthy respect for horses and I've got a healthy respect for all animals because, um, sometimes they, they can be dangerous if we're not listening and if we're, if they've been traumatized in the past or if they've, you know, we're compromising them in some way.

Ruth Hatten: 7:56

But today, don't get me wrong, though, like there is a healthy respect for all of them, but that doesn't mean that sometimes there's an element of fear. So it's kind of like on that piece of trust. It's like you know, I think trust is different to respect, like I love and adore all of them, like every single dog. I see I'm like hello, hello hello, you know, but yeah still.

Dr Edward: 8:22

So today we're going to be exploring the power of herbs. Um, so you're a naturopath, you've got an extensive experience in the medicinal energetics and all that kind of thing of of herbs, so it's a big topic. Where do we start? It is a massive topic.

Ruth Hatten: 8:45

Where do we start? Well, I guess I don't. I mean, I would say the, the, when I think about the clients that I work with and the first thing is really, most people don't understand how herbs can be used to support animal well-being.

Ruth Hatten: 9:03

Um, like it's just not even and you know, you probably experience this as well in in your work like there's, you know, in the, in the modern way of doing things, it's all about drugs and prescription food, right, and that's kind of like the main, this mainstream approach to pet care, and so people know that herbs and plants exist plants, obviously, but there's still that kind of oh, but are they safe and how do I even use them? That's what I feel is like the first kind of thing that comes up for people. So we could, we could start there.

Dr Edward: 9:42

Um, okay, wherever you feel like is good to start. I think that's a good, that's a good place.

Ruth Hatten: 9:49

So lead on and inform us about herbs and the wonders of them and how they can help yeah, yeah, so I mean, when you look at we you know I mentioned before about, you know, animals and their connection um to nature, so it's very natural for them in the wild and we look over the history of animals, they have been self-medicating for years and years and years out in the wilds and there's, you know, there's evidence, there's research that's been done, particularly around you know, the monkey families, like the chimpanzees and the orangutans, um, and how they will eat a certain plant, um, you know, and so the research. I don't know how they did this research, um, but the research makes these, reaches these conclusions that they chose this particular plan to help with parasite prevention, for example. Um, you know, I did write a blog. My memory's a bit hazy, but I have written a blog. There's a few blogs on my website around herbs and animals and I do mention in more detail, um, the particular research that they did in the findings and I'm pretty sure I link through to the research. So if anyone wants to explore that a bit more, not just rely upon my hazy memory there are those written resources available, um, but yeah, so there's evidence to show that animals self-medicate with plants like they self.

Ruth Hatten: 11:17

They're not just randomly eating plants. There is a? Um, a cognizance, and a selection, a mindful selection of those plants. Um, obviously, you can see in the, you know, in a domestic environment you can have house plants and you know there's not necessarily that discernment. They can eat toxic plants, right? Um, although I will say I have some considered toxic plants in my house, like I have a big, big um lily pilly in my house, but my cats have never shown interest in eating that. They've only ever shown interest in the plants that are non-toxic, which I find interesting, you know, um, so there's a lot of fear around plants and animals and I'm certainly not inviting people to go oh yes, fill your house with toxic plants, because I don't know what your pet's going to do in that situation.

Ruth Hatten: 12:07

I know my pets and they're fine, like I've never had a problem, but I can't you know, speak for other people's pets, right?

Ruth Hatten: 12:13

so there is that kind of yes, it's not like willy-nilly, just because it's natural, it's safe, right. And so you know, with certain herbs it comes down to the correct dosage. It also comes down to there are a number of herbs that can be toxic, right. So, um, we need to have awareness around those plants and, like I said, it's not just willingly oh, it's a herb, it's natural, that's fine, I'll give it to my cat. Oh, my god, now my cat's having a seizure or something, right, so vomiting excessively, or I have to go to the vet, um. So there needs to be that awareness, that discernment around that just because something's natural doesn't mean it's safe, um, it's like you wouldn't go and just give your animal a drug without speaking to the vet about it.

Ruth Hatten: 13:07

You know, there's that certain aspect I consider herbs to be safer than drugs and they are technically still considered a drug. So let's do a, let's do a contrast, a differentiating, using the word differentiate between the two. So you've got your pharmaceuticals drugs, um, you know, which is like your medicaid. Well, no, even then, herbs and medicine too, right? So let's just keep it as pharmaceuticals, right?

Ruth Hatten: 13:32

yeah but then you could even say that herbs are pharmaceutical because they have pharmaceuticals. So you know, then we're just dealing with the english language, which is a mess, right? So we've got the natural herbs. They are medicine, they can as medicines, right? They can be used to treat particular ailments and there's so much research around that as well. The more that humans have started to use herbs for their own health, as that interest has grown, there's been more and more research. There's plenty of veterinary herbal texts, right, that go into the research around the herbs with particular conditions, ailments, or from a naturopathic perspective, looking at, you know, the herbs that support different organs, different bodily systems, right? So there is so much information, there's so much knowledge around the way that herbs work. But it's like anything you can Google it you're not necessarily going to get accurate or reliable information.

Dr Edward: 14:40

Yeah, do you use herbs alongside, you know, as a parallel treatment with vets who might be prescribing medications at the same time?

Ruth Hatten: 14:49

Yeah. So I've got a few cases. Often it comes up with severe anxiety cases and seizures. So they're where I've had most of the involvement with vets. So, and usually I will say to the client because they've already gone to the vet and they come to me because they want to know what are their natural options and obviously I need to know everything that they're on. If they're on medications, I need to know exactly what they're on, because if we're going to do a herbal, I need to assess which herbs I can use because, just like with you know some herbs and this goes into that not all herbs are safe because it comes down to the individual animal.

Ruth Hatten: 15:36

Is this herb safe for your animal? And so one of those factors is is your animal on medicine? You know pharmaceutical medicines that's been prescribed by the vet. What are those medicines? I've got the information that I will look at. There's what's called cautions and contraindications and drug interactions, right.

Ruth Hatten: 15:56

So as a herbalist, I am looking at all of that. So when I'm making up a herbal remedy for a dog or for a cat or a horse or what have you, I make sure that I have that information and I make sure that I know I've got this massive, massive spreadsheet that tells me everything and I look at well, what are the cautions and contraindications? Do any of those exist for this animal? Then I'm looking at the drug interactions. What medications are they on? Is that contraindicated with this particular herb medications are they on? Is that contraindicated with this particular herd? And usually the contraindication or the drug interaction is more that it will increase the effect of the drug, sometimes we, which can be a good thing, because then that can mean when you might be able to reduce the amount of that drug that you're giving your animal. But always you need to check that in with your prescribing vet.

Ruth Hatten: 16:45

And so that's when I say to the client we can do this. We have some options, like, if your intention because a lot of people come to me and they're like I don't want my animal on these drugs I'm like, well, if that is your intention, we need to work with your vet, because that gives me a broader scope in terms of what herbs we can use. But you need to communicate with your vet, and if you're not comfortable doing it, I'm happy to have a call with your vet and discuss it with them one-on-one. So there's none of that, you know, breakdown in communication. And then, because it might be, because let's use, say, seizures, for example, right. So this is all about supporting the neurological system, and so we're looking.

Ruth Hatten: 17:31

There's a lot of herbs that have anti-seizure properties, anti-spasmodic, anti-spasmodic, anti-convulsant research that has proven that they're effective with reducing the severity and or occurrence of seizures. So we can go all out and really go strong, not strong, strong it's. I was going to say hit it hard. But that's not the way I would either use those herbs. But if that animal is on seizure medication, well then it's like this is probably going to increase the effect of those seizure medications. So if you don't want to do that, we're not going to use those herbs.

Ruth Hatten: 18:07

If your idea is that you want to potentially see if you can stop those drugs or reduce the dose, let's work with the vet, and they know what we're doing so they can work, advise you on when is appropriate time, if at all, to start to reduce the dose of the drug. But that's the vet that does that, um. So that's how they can be worked in, used in conjunction, but then they can also be used if we're not, if we're like, okay, well, next, let's not use those. We don't have the vet on board, um, so you're not going to have that advice as we go, so let's leave those herbs out. What we can do instead is use herbs that don't have an interaction with that drug, um, that are going to support other aspects of your animal's health as well, and also to incorporate um liver support, so that we can support the liver in eliminating the toxic residue of those drugs. Especially with those seed demands, long term can have a big impact on the liver, as you would know.

Dr Edward: 19:08

Yeah, they're definitely phenobarbitone and keper and all those things are the things that have to go through detox pathways in the liver and they do have a toxic load. But yeah, vets, hey, not not. Funnily enough I'm being a little bit tongue-in-cheek here funnily enough, not all vets are open to the idea of using herbs no.

Ruth Hatten: 19:26

And I do say to the clients look, there are plenty of vets out there who are open. I can give you a few names. If you want to reach out, research them and see who you're comfortable with, you know um, because I think it's important um for them to know that there are other options. There are vets out there who are open and who are willing to work with you, like yourself, using natural remedies, because, at the end of the day, if that's going to be the best thing for your animal, then why not explore it?

Dr Edward: 21:04

Do no harm, right? Yeah, and yeah. It's a curious thing that I think vets get kind of boxed up in their training.

Dr Edward: 21:13

I know I was when I first graduated For sure, and I know that I'm perfectly happy with people using herbs and whatever. But the other thing I'd say to people is you know, it's okay for you to stand your bed up and say, yeah, well, my animal, this is what I want to do. And that can lead to a little bit of healthy conflict with some vets and some vets take it better than others but I really think it's important that people advocate, even if it does upset their vet a little bit, because that's our job, isn't it? To look after our animals and really take responsibility for how we're going to care for them, you know.

Ruth Hatten: 21:44

Yeah, because it's so important. It's like you are your pet's guardian. They are so dependent upon you. It is your responsibility to do the absolute best that you can, and if that means that you know you need to stand up and say no, I don't want to do that. There has to be another option, and if you're not able to present me with those options, then there's other people I can go to.

Ruth Hatten: 22:06

And it's not it's not like a criticism, although there's, you know. You know, I know what vets are going through, what they're dealing with on a day-to-day basis. But there are plenty of vets out there who have gone out and done additional training in natural fields of veterinary medicine the infant, the courses are there, the information is there, you know, and it's like, if you want to get, if you're getting a lot of clients who want to explore those natural options, you don't want to lose their business well then it says to me so go and do some additional training, open yourself up to this whole other world of medicine, you know, because it's only going to grow right well, you'd hope so.

Dr Edward: 22:46

Um. So, with herbs, how do you see? How do they work? What? What do they do? What are the benefits of herbs compared to, perhaps, a synthetically made prescription medicine? What? Yeah if you go to a deeper level of the kind of plant and the energetics and all that sort of thing. How do you understand that?

Ruth Hatten: 23:10

yeah. So I mean, first of all, you've got something that's synthetic, man-made, and something that's completely natural. In saying that, though, a lot of medicines, their core active ingredient is derived from a plant, but then they've added all the extra things and they've made that plant unnatural. They've created an unnatural product, even though it started off. You know, what they can do is replicate what one of those active constituents of the plant does, and then they create a medicine around it, right? You know? Yeah, you would know that, um. So, first of all, you've got something. So you've got something that's man-made. You've got something that, um, is um, uh, artificial, what's the proper word? So it's, it's chemical, but you have chemicals in nature too. There's chemicals in everything.

Dr Edward: 24:07

I suppose, I suppose synthetic would be how I'd call it yeah, something that made you know it's. It's artificially created through chemical processes rather than naturally created through the chemical processes of life in a plant you've also.

Ruth Hatten: 24:23

Another difference between the two is is the the intelligence of mother nature. So there are these plants out there, um that most, if not all of them will not I mean, we don't know right so I would say most if not all of them, based on my knowledge that currently exists, um have medicinal components, have have medicinal benefits, have health benefits.

Ruth Hatten: 24:48

So, it's not just about that. Plant is not important just because of one active constituent, one active part. There could be several active parts, and then there's all the inactive parts. And I'm going to use turmeric as an example, because it's a well-known herb, herb mostly considered as a spice with human usage. You know, we add it to our food and we don't.

Ruth Hatten: 25:11

Most people don't think oh my god, I'm eating herbs because it is powerful, it is an herb antioxidant, anti-inflammatory, so good for the liver, so good for everything, right should be a staple um for you and your animals, right? Because I also think there are some cautions and contraindications, so it's not 100% safe for everyone. So don't just go willy-nilly. And if you give too much turmeric, some animals can get diarrhea, and I've also had some animals that even at the right dosage, they react. So that's always that disclaimer. So if we look at turmeric, and most of it, most health conscious people know that the active constituent in turmeric, or the one that's considered the active, the singular active constituent, is curcumin. And so that's why, you see, even even in the natural world, you still get those that thing of, oh, it's only the active, that's important, right? And so that's why you see all those.

Dr Edward: 26:08

there's so many curcumin supplements and sometimes we need the curcumin that that's kind of the whole western reductionist kind of worldview too, which is exactly a bit at odds with a more holistic view of the wholeness of a thing and the entourage effect and all this other kind of. If people haven't heard of the entourage effect, I'm sure you can explain what that is.

Ruth Hatten: 26:32

Or synergy right.

Dr Edward: 26:33

Yeah, yeah.

Ruth Hatten: 26:35

And so that's exactly right. And that's one of the other aspects as well, and that's what I'm getting to in a very long-winded roundabout way is Mother Nature, the intelligence, the whole plant. So it's not just about the curcumin. There are other constituents in that plant that help, that give turmeric its therapeutic effect right. And so nature has devised this plant, you know, as a whole, to support the body, right. So those active constituents, those inactive constituents work together to increase bioavailability, to increase absorption to. Also there are other nutrient factors in those inactives that will help the active to.

Ruth Hatten: 27:27

What comes back. It is that bioavailability to really open up and um, I'm not using any scientific words this morning because I'm, like you know, tired to to open up and basically have a positive effect right. So when you've got that synthetic, man-made pharmaceutical medication that might, or that supplement, that's just curcumin that's not the way nature intended for these plants to be consumed they won't necessarily have as good as good an effect as when you're taking the whole plant. Because of this synergy one thing, one thing helps to, one thing works to help the other. So one aspect of the plant will have a certain um feature that then it's like the human body. That's probably a good way to show it.

Ruth Hatten: 28:23

We all are all bodies, we are, have all systems. You know, obviously, between a human body or an animal body, the differences, different systems with a plant body. But one part of the human body or the animal body does not stand alone. Everything is connected. When we eat some food, we take a herb or something, it goes in. It goes in, you know, it starts with the digestive system, in our mouth, it goes down the esophagus, it goes down. Then you know, it makes its way down down into the stomach um, I'm thinking of where things are situated within the body, anatomy. Then stomach, down into the liver. Liver does things with it. Then it goes any waste or anything, it will process all of that and off it shoots to where it needs to go.

Ruth Hatten: 29:08

Within the body. Everything is connected, right, so it goes. Everything is assimilated through all of the processes that exist within the body. It is the same with plants. So there, you cannot or you can. But it's not accurate to compartmentalize because everything is connected. So the therapeutic aspect of the plant comes because of this holistic, this synergistic, this whole plant.

Dr Edward: 29:42

I hear you and I'm so on the same page as you. I just pulled up a thing about turmeric, and only you know 1% to 6% of the plant, of the root is curcuminoid. So it's not even just curcumin. There's a whole host of similar kinds of things and 34 essential oils and a whole lot of other stuff that science probably hasn't even got to measuring yet. In this, this simple little bright yellow flavorsome pungent root that we love to use in cooking right yeah, and that's.

Ruth Hatten: 30:14

you make a really good point there and I'm glad you did it, because science is always changing and you know, I've had this debate with people my entire life. Oh, we have to rely on science, only the science matters and I'm like, well, it matters, but it's not the be all and end all, because science is limited to what research has been done. There is so much we don't know. In part, if we want to rely upon the science we may not know, there's a lot that we don't know because the science hasn't been done yet. Oh, when they eventually?

Dr Edward: 30:49

do the science.

Ruth Hatten: 30:50

When eventually someone pays the money to a research lab to do the research, what about all these other constituents in turmeric? What do they do Until that research is done? You're not going to convince those you know, those people that 100% rely upon science that it's more than just curcumin. It's not that it doesn't have any benefits, it's literally just because the money hasn't changed hands for that research to be done I hear you so.

Dr Edward: 31:22

So what are you? What's your favorite herb or herbs, I mean? For me I reckon cbd cannabis whole plant extract rich in cannabis, rich in c whole plant cannabis extract rich in cbd have to be my absolute favorite herbal medicine. But do you have any particular herbs or herbal medicines that that are more important for you?

Ruth Hatten: 31:44

um, I, it's. For me, it's more about, like, um, just the ones that I'm attracted to. There are ones that I'm attracted to because of what they do, but it's more so about I just have this resonance, um, and that might sound a bit airy for otis, because I imagine you're going to be having you probably do have vets as well well, I don't know.

Dr Edward: 32:06

I don't know. I mean, people have particular herbs that some people like and they're cooking and some people don't. I think that there's that. There are kind of you talk about a resonance, but it also could be a physiological difference. That means that your system is actually more in harmony with those particular herbs and other herbs. You know, I think there's a whole lot of individual variation.

Ruth Hatten: 32:27

Yeah, totally so. For me it always comes down to that very much. I love that plant because it does these things, but there's just something about this plant that I just really, really, really, really love. So those plants are right at the top of the list. The one that always comes front of mind is dandelion, and one of the reasons is because dandelion is kind of like the underdog of the herb world, like everyone just thinks it's a pesty weed because it just grows everywhere and it takes over everything and it's like, yeah, but oh, my God, it is so good for you, we have it in abundance. It's like a gift. I mean, they're all gifts from nature, right. But it's just like here, take this beautiful liver-supported, gallbladder-supported, kidney-supported, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera. Herb I'm gifting it to you, use it, etc. Etc. Herb um, I'm gifting it to you, use it, like it's everywhere. It's an abundance, use it.

Ruth Hatten: 33:20

You know, um, and it's also very you know, the flower of the dandelion, the beautiful, bright yellow, like the power of the sun and the joy when you see. You know, yellow is a very joyful color, right? So it also has to me. When we're looking at more from an emotional and spiritual kind of perspective. It's like the symbolism of the plant for me is like joy and freedom, because it's like I will grow anywhere and you will never shut me down, like you know, like it's just like power, you know and you know energy, I know energy. So let's bring in also the color of the yellow is the solar plexus, chakra. And the solar plexus, um, is, you know, a liver, is a big part of the solar plexus, a liver. The solar plexus is, you know, one of the interpretations of it is the power center. You know, I am worthy, I am strong, I am courageous. So we see that with the color of the yellow, like the color of the sun and the power of the, sun right.

Ruth Hatten: 34:21

So and then you've got, when the, the seeds, you know the little dandelion wishes, and you, as a child, you blow them. So there's also that kind of beautiful aspect of dandelion that I love.

Dr Edward: 34:34

So it's not just about the health benefits, it also the symbolism of the plant yeah, and I I hear your whole voice and your being light up when you start talking about dandelion, which is super cool, and for me I'm also thinking well, you know, for me I think dandelion, there's a vitality, it does something beyond all the kind of medicinal things. It's got this vitality, like you say, it can grow anywhere. It's the first thing that pops up and provides bitter greens in spring. It's got a really vital life force to it and you know all your people out there. As long as you're in a place where things are not getting sprayed, you can, while you're on your walk, you can pick up some dandelion greens and you can mince them up and put them in your pet's food and it really, really helps support their vitality and has all sorts of other benefits as well. You know a lot of these things we forget.

Ruth Hatten: 35:28

Natural laxatives. It's a gentle laxative, it's not a harsh laxative.

Ruth Hatten: 35:34

So it just helps to keep things moving and that's part of you know also that helps with the production of bile from the liver, so that's going to help with digestion of fats. Like it's just an amazing it's. It's the plant that keeps on giving and the more you read about it and the more you learn about it, the more you fall in. I did, anyway, more you fall in love with it, right, um, but just like you say as well, as long as it's not sprayed, but also never pick any herbs that are on the side of the road because of all all the fumes and everything going past there, um, so you can often find it on the side of the road, but it's also can be easily confused with cat's claw because they do look very similar. So, audience, just get onto Google and do dandelion versus cat's claw and you'll see.

Ruth Hatten: 36:25

I mean, I've got some books with beautiful images of both side by side where you can see how you can easily mistake one for the other. Cat's claw has kind of, the leaves are furry, and that's the main, the easiest point of difference. The leaves are furry. That's the main, the easiest point of difference. The leaves are furry. Dandelion leaves are smooth. There's no fur, right, um, and it's cat's tongue, the cat's closet, it's cat's tongue, oh my gosh cat's ear.

Dr Edward: 36:48

I think you're talking about.

Ruth Hatten: 36:50

That's the one, yeah, yeah, cat's ear, which I always think of cat's tongue because it's furry, like a cat's tongue, and so that's how I normally, when my brain's functioning better, I remember the name, right, the furry cat's tongue, but then it's cat ear. So, yeah, I always think cat's tongue and so that. But that's a really easy way if you, you know, you don't. You don't really need to know the names, you can just remember. Ruth said the cat's tongue is furry. That's not dandelion. Ah, that's the cat one, right, not for cats, just cat in the. That's not dandelion, ah, that's the cat one, right, not for cats, just cat in the name. And so the dandelion has the smooth, smooth leaf. But, yeah, another one as well is marshmallow.

Ruth Hatten: 37:28

I love marshmallow because it's really it's such a healing plant Like one of the main actions of marshmallow is demulcent. And for those of you who don't know what's a herbal action, that's the way the herb works in the body. It's the action that the herb does, right. So one and herbs have several actions. This is one of the other reasons why I love herbs is like they're not a single focus. You know they can have five, 10, 20, 50 actions right, actions right, yeah, but one of the main ones in marshmallow is demulcent, and demulcent means that it's soothing and protective of the mucus membranes.

Ruth Hatten: 38:09

So marshmallow really can shine, can help in in like urinary conditions, in digestive conditions where there's been scarring or inflammation, and so, um, if you think of like a urinary tract infection or if there's like urinary stones that can cause scarring along the urine, the, the membranes, the soft tissues of the urinary tract, so marshmallow root can come in and heal those mucous membranes in the in the urinary tract, can heal those mucous membranes in the gastrointestinal tract. Um, and so that can. That is a herb that I do use quite a lot because, you know, animals are not the animals. Humans are coming to me for their animals conditions that have, you know that that um, that inflammation or that damage to the mucous membranes and who have we got here?

Dr Edward: 39:02

hello. Jen nearly always turns up somewhere in a podcast episode to say hello and and help out. If you're listening, you won't be able to see her, but she's just jumped up on my knee and being all cuddly lovely she's beautiful. Maybe she's like oh, I like marshmallow too she's been probably out there eating self self-selecting herbs and grasses out of our garden. I would say yeah, good girl.

Ruth Hatten: 39:27

So so they're two. Like, I could go on and on and on about my aprons, but they're the first two that always, that always come to mind. Oh, I just remembered another one that always comes to mind ashwagandha oh, ashwagandha is a absolute.

Dr Edward: 39:44

I use it a lot in my practice yeah, any kind of.

Ruth Hatten: 39:49

You know it again. That's a plant that does so many things, most commonly known for its support on the nervous system. Um, and it's such a. It's not a herb that has a really over powerful taste and it's gentle in its action, but it's still very effective, and so that's one of the reasons why I do use it a lot. Um, I take it myself as well, um for nervous system support, like you know, but it's also immune support. Um, there are so many I'm just trying to visualize my spreadsheet where I've got all of this stuff listed um that it does so many wonderful things. But, yeah, I'd say they're my top three, and not necessarily in any order down the line that come up.

Dr Edward: 40:37

So now a lot of people take herbs. These days, herbal medicine and supplements are something that has. Well, you know, we all used to take them and then Western science kind of took over and we forgot about them and there's a big kind of renaissance in natural medicine, herbal medicine. So a lot of people might be taking milk, thistle or echinacea or you know I can probably think of dandelion or ashwagandha or maca powder or whatever.

Dr Edward: 41:08

You know, there's a lot of different things that people might take. So when it comes to what herbs are safe for people, how does that compare to dogs and cats? Are there any things that are safe for people? How does that compare to dogs and cats? Are there any things that are safe for people that might not be safe for dogs and not safe for cats?

Ruth Hatten: 41:25

If we're just doing a generalisation, it mostly just comes down. It mostly comes down to dosage, unless you're looking like. When you mentioned maca, I also thought, because I often combine the two. I also thought cacao, but then I was like well, we're not going to give our pets cacao, right?

Dr Edward: 41:43

No.

Ruth Hatten: 41:44

But that's an example, right, where the plant is safe for you know, because cacao is plant medicine as well. Right, it's a plant.

Dr Edward: 41:53

Absolutely.

Ruth Hatten: 41:54

Whereas cacao is beautiful, beautiful heart medicine and so many other things as well. That would be a very clear example. Great for us, not great for them, but most I mean I'm just thinking of what I have. Could I give all of that stuff to my apples? Yeah, I could, except, like I said, except for the cacao. Even maca has a place, like so, nutritionally rich maca, right? Yeah, but mostly, mostly, it just comes down to the dosage. When we're looking at it from a generalised perspective, because obviously we've got the individual circumstances that might mean that it's not appropriate, right?

Dr Edward: 42:37

And there is the occasional herb that can be kind of really toxic for dogs and not for humans and I I I was looking at a, a particular cbd hemp extract that had other herbs in it, called sleepy time, that had some relaxing herbs and it had hops in it. You can't give hops. Hops is very toxic for dogs.

Ruth Hatten: 43:01

Yes, I don't use hops in my practice um, because it's not one of those. It's also not a readily available because mostly I only use organic um herbs. Um, so it's not as readily available. But you know that's a good example of one. But then also that when you read the literature um and you're reading quotients, like the literature on veterinary herbal medicine um, there there are mentions of mention of certain herbs where they might say there's there's a certain um belief or you know that this is toxic, but there's actually no significant, there's no evidence to actually um prove that um claim yeah so you know, it's always like looking at those things with a grain of salt because there's there's not always certainty, and so, you know, always for like practitioners, but also for pet parents themselves, is like but mostly for practitioners.

Ruth Hatten: 44:00

It's kind of like, just because something is regarded in the mainstream as toxic doesn't mean that it is. You've got to go beneath that. You've got to look at what actually is the research. What does it say? Was it just you know? Was it legitimate research? Was it done on a wide enough? Was the study wide enough or was it just you know? Was it legitimate research? Was it done on a wide enough? Was a study wide enough or was it just a potential? And was it potential in a specific circumstance? You know, it's not so easy to just say, well, this is, you know, across the board, this is toxic. Right, there are some things where you know.

Dr Edward: 44:32

Another one, of course, is like well, foxglove, but that's also toxic for humans well, digitalis, absolutely, it's toxic at the wrong dose and I suppose that gets into the whole thing. That what's the difference between a, a poison and a medicine?

Ruth Hatten: 44:46

right and nearly always it's the amount that you give and that's what I mean. Like it comes most of the time it just comes down to dosage, like. Like a lot of that research as well, where they've said this is toxic is because they've used ridiculous amounts, right, like it's like the study on garlic. You know, we can talk about garlic because garlic is also a herb. Every, almost every single client. Where they've seen in my wellness plans garlic, they're like but isn't garlic toxic?

Ruth Hatten: 45:16

No, and then I tell them about them, about, you know the study that was done and they used ridiculous amounts of garlic like you're not going to go and give a whole bulb of garlic to your dog. That's just crazy no, you're not.

Dr Edward: 45:26

And and I think another thing that I'm always really sensitive to and think about a lot and this this also plays into adverse reactions from pharmaceutical drugs is you've got a bell curve of sensitivity in, or a normal distribution of sensitivity to, any and any kind of active ingredient, whether it's herbal or whatever. And if you have a dog right on the super sensitive end, then what what might be a beautiful therapeutic dose for the the mean or the median or whatever could actually be fatally toxic for a dog that's got an extreme sensitivity in that natural distribution here exactly, and that's whether it's pharmaceutical or because that can happen with the natural too, you know, and happens, and I would say it mostly.

Ruth Hatten: 46:11

The herb that that would most likely occur in, based on what I've seen in my experience, is turmeric. There can be quite a sensitive in those ovaries or in those extra sensitive animals. Turmeric can be contraindicated for them, or we all we need to give a lower dose. You know, just because they're having a reaction won't necessarily mean it's not an option for them at all. And this brings up another interesting point as well. As like, dosage is individual, so there's a wide range For a lot of herbs you can have. The dosage for animals can range from 50 milligrams to 500 milligrams per kilo of body weight, right, whereas sometimes it can be much shorter. It can only be 100 to 250 of the that they're.

Dr Edward: 47:00

I'm talking about therapeutic dosing, right oh well, that's when you get the whole therapeutic index, which is basically the, the range of safety, of amount per kilogram exactly.

Ruth Hatten: 47:12

But you know you could give. You could have a dog or a cat that's fine on that top range. I never recommend top range, I've never needed to. But then you could have a dog or a cat that's fine on that top range. I never recommend top range, I've never needed to. But then you could have an animal who only needs the lowest dose and that's all they need, because their body is assimilating that so well. And so there is an art in dosage and that's why it's like, you know, you buy a supplement says this is theage, or my dog had a reaction because your dog's an individual and that's a generic product for a generic market. You know, like that's where when you work with a professional, even if you're using a generic product, they can go. Well, I know your dog, so I think you should give 50% or 25% of that dosage, you know.

Dr Edward: 47:56

Do you think that you would need to use a lower dose rate of herbs that are organically or biodynamically grown compared to ones that are grown with a more industrial type um farming?

Ruth Hatten: 48:09

it's an interesting question because then it brings up does do um? Does the exposure to toxins decrease the efficacy of the plant or does it just make it dirty like dirty in that it's, you know, has to?

Dr Edward: 48:23

Yeah, as it's contaminated. Yeah.

Ruth Hatten: 48:24

Because it's contaminated, I don't know. And this comes back to the argument that has existed forever, as long as well since organic food started to become popular, popularized. There is still that school of thought that there is no difference between, um, the health benefits of organic and non-organic foods, it just. But then you've also got genetic modification right, so that brings a whole other layer of it, you know, whereas properly organic food, there is no genetic modification.

Ruth Hatten: 48:59

The food is the way nature intended. That's why it's not perfect. It's why that carrot looks like it's got a twin. You know, um, they're together they're like um, yeah, um, or lumps and bumps, and it's not a perfect because it hasn't been genetically modified right. So there is imperfection in nature and that's a beautiful lesson as well. Total sidetrack. But you know, I always think of it when I'm in the bush and nature's so messy.

Dr Edward: 49:23

Give yourself permission to be messy like nature you know actually that's perfect and when you get to understand chaos, mathematics and stuff, you realize that all harmony arises out of chaotic processes anyway, as a natural function of energetics and reality. But you know, when I go shopping for veggies here at Kassamane, our local town, we've got a beautiful place that has an organic section and a conventional section.

Dr Edward: 49:54

Yeah, and what I've noticed is that all the conventional project produce is about twice the size of the organic produce yes, yeah and I honestly I can't eat conventional veggies and fruit anymore because the flavor and the intensity and the life force is so anemic in the conventional.

Ruth Hatten: 50:14

I just can't do it yeah, and so you can correlate that with herbs, because they're all plants, right, they're not different just because one is a tomato and one is a dandelion, right? So you know, I think for me and then that's partly you know my choice in when I'm making herbal products, my clients, animals, and for myself and for for my animals, because of my stance on organic and as close to nature as possible, but that's so important to me. So when I'm creating those products for my clients' animals, that carries through right, because my underlying belief is that organic is better, because it's cleaner, and there is certainly I cannot say it with any guarantees or any hard core evidence to back it up, but it's more like. For me, my feeling is, because it's cleaner, it's probably going to be more therapeutic. It also has because it hasn't had.

Ruth Hatten: 51:16

If you think about the nature of those sprays, like most of the time we talk, you know, let's park genetic modification for the moment. When we talk about the sprays, it's like you know, the pesticide, the fungicide sprays, yeah, they are designed to kill, to destroy, right? So is it a possibility? That's, while it's killing and destroying the pests, it's also killing and destroying part of the nature, part of the vitality of the plant itself, therefore affecting the therapeutic nature of it.

Dr Edward: 51:41

I reckon my personal take on this is that it's a vitality and a life force difference between organics and biodynamics and, you know, wild-crafted Though there are some ethical concerns with wild-crafted herbs too yeah definitely.

Dr Edward: 51:55

Slippery almond, that can be a problem. Slippery almond. Wild crafted herbs too, that can be a problem, slippery almond um, what's the other one? The japanese one? That they're low for vitality. I can't remember the name, but might come to me in a minute. One of the roots that they use extensively in chinese medicine that is almost extinct in the wild as well is it not weed?

Ruth Hatten: 52:16

that just no, no, no, no, there's no problem it might pop into my head in a minute I've got another one in my head as well.

Dr Edward: 52:25

That's often but, um, yeah, I I think it's vitality and for me, you know you and I both work with, with energy, western herbs one, but that's also one that's. That's one of them, but there are a number of herbs that are starting to frankincense, you know, and sandalwood are other ones that are becoming very and palo santo.

Dr Edward: 52:49

There's a number of different plants that there's immense pressure on. That ethically, we probably should be finding a way to grow them more organically and sustainably in a in a more kind of cultured way than in the wild, because they are.

Ruth Hatten: 53:03

They are doing that with golden seal, um, you know, and so it's when you're sorting those herbs, it's just that's one of those things to check is how is how? Is this grown? Where is this grown? Is this, you know, if it is wild crafted, is it? You know? We shouldn't be choosing this for this particular herb because it's so damaged. You know, there's all those other factors as well that come into play, but definitely with the um life force and the vitality, like I 100 agree with you because, like I said, it's like those, those chemicals are designed to kill and so, whilst they're designed to kill the plant, the pest, I still think it's it's killing part of that life force, of the oh absolutely I agree with you, and you know also, pumping them up with fertilizers also dilutes life force and damages the integrity of the animal.

Dr Edward: 53:54

It's a bit like pumping up a weight lifter on steroids right, their muscles get bigger, but it damages their systems in different ways. And I thought of the animal. It's a bit like pumping up a weight lifter on steroids right, their muscles get bigger, but it damages their systems in different ways. And I thought of the name ginseng is the other one, that's oh yes of course very heavily harvested in the wild, and it's sort of you got to have ethical considerations too definitely yeah, and luckily, because there are so many herbs we can substitute.

Ruth Hatten: 54:20

You know, like slippery elm, you know, um marshmallow, um, is it marshmallow? And certain aspect of it marshmallow can be used in place of slippery elm. Um psyllium is another one yeah, and you can also see it in the pricing, like that's one of the reasons why slippery elm is so expensive because it's not as readily available as other plants, you know, because it is absolutely.

Dr Edward: 54:51

Um. So are there any kinds of herbs or plants that you think are great to have growing in your plant for your pets to self-select if they want to?

Ruth Hatten: 55:01

yeah like I love nettle nettle nettle. Yeah, yeah, I love alfalfa, chickweed, chickweed. Hello dandelion because your favorite one yeah, go against the grain people and actually grow, cultivate dandelion yourself. Yeah, you know, um, um, I'm actually thinking of doing a course next year on like um, pets, pets, herbs for pets, you know, just for daily wellness, um, and how to actually you know if you want to grow them yourself and also how to use them and dosages and stuff like that. But they're some of the and it'll probably include at least three of those.

Ruth Hatten: 55:49

But yeah, alfalfa chickpea nettle um they're, you know, they're very safe herbs, very gentle herbs, even just. And also I mean my cats love lemongrass. They absolutely die for lemongrass.

Dr Edward: 56:03

Okay, and lemongrass is kind of hard.

Ruth Hatten: 56:06

It's very hardy and even with that lemon scent, like it's not a lemon, a true lemon scent. But I never thought that my cats would and it was by accident that I discovered like out of, because I often will get them different types of grasses to have on the deck as well, as you know if they can't be bothered walking down into the garden to eat the grass there. But you know, it was by accident. I had lemongrass and they went to that versus the cat grass or the cat mint and I was like shit, that's surprising because it's also quite spiky.

Ruth Hatten: 56:42

Yeah, it is it's quite a tough, tough, yeah, I know so. Whenever I get it it doesn't last very long at all, so you can go and you can also get cat grass catnip, I mean cat, yes, catnip, but cat mint.

Ruth Hatten: 56:53

All those beautiful grasses are available, and you know that's also a common myth as well, that oh my god, there's something wrong with my dog or my cat because they're eating grass. You know no, no, not at all behavior. It can be a sign that something's up if they're eating more than they normally are, and that's where observation and getting to know your animal is really important, because you'll know what their you know normal eating habit is when it comes to grass, and you'll know what their you know normal eating habit is when it comes to grass, and you'll identify are they eating more today? Well, yeah, they are. Does it mean you need to rush them off to the vet? I might get in trouble for saying this, but not necessarily, like it could literally be that they've gone and eaten something they shouldn't and they just kind of clear it out because they instinctually know that the grass is a purgative.

Dr Edward: 57:43

Oh, look, you know, I reckon dogs and cats vomiting for dogs and cats is a bit like burping for us and occasional vomit I don't worry about at all, I just think that's just it's.

Ruth Hatten: 57:49

If it's happening, and especially if there's a lot of grass in their vomit, like it happens with mine, they'll overdo it?

Dr Edward: 57:55

Oh, absolutely In the wild dogs regurgitate for their puppies, so it's a very easy, much more common thing for dogs than humans vomiting I think, yeah, um, and I knew all the other kind of culinary herbs. Could you have them in the house as well? In?

Ruth Hatten: 58:14

case you could, you know, have turmeric, but be careful that you're not too giving too much, that they get diarrhea. I always say start small, start with the smallest tiny little pinch as well, because turmeric can also create a palatability issue. Um, if you put too much turmeric in your dog and your cat's not going to eat their dinner, right, yeah, start really really small. Um, yeah, your common things like that that most people will have in their pantry, right, like oregano, basil, um, thyme thyme is a beautiful, so is oregano beautiful, beautiful antimicrobial um can also help with parasite prevention.

Ruth Hatten: 58:51

Um, antifungal, um, just thinking what, what are, what are the herbs I have, like in my spice, in my spices oregano, basil, thyme, um, like, even when we're talking about alfalfa, you know if you buy, if you're buying the sprouts. Unfortunately, most alfalfa is conventionally grown. I have a friend who started. I was over at her house the other day and she started sprouting like, like, she just buys like organic alfalfa seeds, organic fenugreek, organic fennel, all kinds of seeds, and she started sprouting. She's like Ruth, it's so easy. I'm like, I love alfalfa but I never buy it because it's really difficult.

Dr Edward: 59:31

No, it's super easy to sprout those things, and that's something that you can absolutely add into your pet's diet for vitality minerals, vitamins, all sorts of goodness in sprouts yeah, and so it's like it doesn't have to be.

Ruth Hatten: 59:46

Yes, it's very easily and convenient to buy those dried herbs, but again, you can buy like the sprouted versions, like the, the alfalfa, but, yeah, don't buy the conventional because they are heavily, heavily sprayed alfalfa get online order some organic alfalfa um seeds, you literally get a little like a sprout.

Ruth Hatten: 1:00:06

You can just get cheesecloth, wrap them in there, soak it, you know, refresh that water like two or three times a day, and then you'll see magic happen the seeds. Seeds will start sprouting. You can have it in your salads, you can give it to animals, you know, beautiful, high nutrient source of food, right and really affordable if you're just getting the seeds, you know.

Dr Edward: 1:00:29

Absolutely Okay. So we're coming to the end of this conversation, which has been fascinating. Thanks for sharing your wisdom with us today, and we always finish with a couple of questions. So what do you think is humanity's biggest blind spot when it comes to your work and our shared journey of healing and evolution on this planet?

Ruth Hatten: 1:00:48

first of all, that it even exists. The amount of people that have found me and said I didn't even know that there was such a thing as an animal naturopath. If I'd known about you I would have contacted you years ago. And often that comes from a place of sadness because they've lost a pet and it's like if I'd known about you then I could have done all of this stuff that I'm doing for my animal with you now for that animal. And then it's like well, you know, you knew you had the information that you were supposed to have at that time, so don't beat yourself up about it. You know you were supposed to have at that time, so don't beat yourself up about it. You know you were meant to come into, I was meant to come into your environment now like huge learnings for you, and now you've got all this information to go forward. So that's the first thing is that people like us even exist, right?

Ruth Hatten: 1:01:31

The next thing is that you know it's not as difficult as people and I will say standard vets and pet industry as they put forward how difficult it is to care for your animals in this way. Like anything when you start something new, it can be a bit of a challenge because it's new and you're going through a learning process. But once you've learned it it just becomes second nature. And the easiest example of that is it's feeding the food that you feed like you're going from a kibble diet to a fresh food diet. It's a big change, you know it's it's. If you're just buying the food, it's not such a big change. But if you want to explore making the food and doing that properly, then that's a big change. Just opening that kibble bag to oh my god, now I've got to prepare their food massive change, big learning curve.

Ruth Hatten: 1:02:25

You know I've been through it. I went through it years and years and years ago and it was just as difficult for me then as it's going to be for anyone. Right, like, yeah, you know I'm no, I'm not gonna say I'm no expert. I am now, but back then I wasn't right'd started my studies but I wouldn't have put myself hold myself out as an expert back then, but now for me it's just, it's so easy, and then you've got all the positive benefits that outweigh that disgusting opening that bag and feeding that process dead food, right.

Ruth Hatten: 1:02:51

So it's not as hard as the pet industry, as standard vets tell you that it is. So that would be the second thing you know, and coming to that is like it's really accessible, you know, and that we can personalise the treatment for your animal when we're using things like herbs. You know I have some generic products that I sell just for like to help with detoxification and things like that. It does have beautiful dandelion, um, but I also most of the herbal medicines that I make are personalized, right, so I get all the information about the animal and I tailor it exactly to what I see that animal needs, and that's something that you know.

Ruth Hatten: 1:03:39

Going and just buying a drug, that's never going to give you that personalized medicine, right, um, so I'd say that's probably like. A third thing is like you can really tailor this. You can really tailor natural, natural foods, natural medicines to your animal. You can't do, in a way, um with the pharmaceuticals, um, but yeah, it all just comes down to there is another way of caring your pets and it's not. It's not as hard as everyone says it is awesome.

Dr Edward: 1:04:07

Thank you for that. And last question what is the change that you want to be and inspire others to be in this world that we share?

Ruth Hatten: 1:04:19

Well, you know part of it. You could say everything that I just said to answer your other question that it's not as hard as most people think it is.

Ruth Hatten: 1:04:26

The other thing as well that is more of like a general animal perspective, is that it's not just about our cats and dogs. Every single animal matters. And having that awareness and that understanding and that respect, um, for the inherent value of all animals in all existence, whether they're considered to be pests or what have you, they are all here for a reason. They all have their own individual inherent value. And, yeah, if you ask me, the world would be a horrible place without animals. You know, um, I can't, I don't think I'd want to be here if there weren't non-human animals like, oh, I hear you, I hear you. Yeah, so it really just is. You know, every animal matters, every life matters.

Dr Edward: 1:05:24

Beautiful. Well, Ruth, thank you so much for coming on and exploring the power of herbs, which is immense, and I would encourage you all.

Ruth Hatten: 1:05:32

Every plant matters.

Dr Edward: 1:05:34

Every plant matters, every living energy. Every living energy, Every living living, living energy for living, living living energy, and so you're an animal naturopath, um you, you help people with individual sessions, I think you have training programs and things like that. So where, where can people find you if they're curious about learning more and maybe working with?

Ruth Hatten: 1:05:58

you. Yeah, the best place, the main hub, is my website, um. Ruthhattoncom. Um. You know, really easy as long as you get the spelling right. But even if you just google my name, you'll find it. You'll find it, um. And then there's like there's a blog there. I've also got a podcast. You know, I've got social media too, but you'll find all of that information on the website.

Dr Edward: 1:06:22

And it's Ruth Hatton H-A-T-T-E-N, so you've got the spelling, so you can get there easily. Dot com, not dot com.

Ruth Hatten: 1:06:29

Dot au, just dot com yeah, because I work with people like all over the world, so yeah, Beautiful.

Dr Edward: 1:06:40

Well, it's been awesome having you on. Been really interesting, far-ranging conversation. Um, have a beautiful day. Make sure you give your dogs a pat. For me and all the listeners out there. If you could, please give your pets a pat for both of us, that'd be lovely, yes, please we'll see you all in the next episode thank you.